Haribol to All
Please accept my dandavat pranams
All Glories to Srila Gurudeva
By the mercy of Srila Gurudeva
and Gauranga,we have finalised
plans for our festival of devotion
in Kwa-Zulu Natal,starting from
Pietermaritzburg then moving to
the Durban area,Phoenix,Chatsworth
and Greytown.Also we have the great
fortune of confirming that Sripad
Ashram and Damodara Maharaja`s will
be preaching at these festival of devotion.
Please watch this space for more details
of venue`s and times.We will be distributing
many of Srila Gurudeva`s books and dvd`s
also many senior devotees will be coming
for 6 weeks to assist with book distribution
etc.We require lots of assistance so if
you are available and would like to take
this oppurtunity to engage in devotional
service please contact me.
Monday, August 31, 2009
Thursday, August 27, 2009
For Srimati Radharani`s divine appeareance day
Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja
SRI RADHASTAMI
[This year, 2009, Sri Radhastami is August 28th, in India. As usual, Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja is conducting the festivities throughout the day at Sri Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha in Mathura. In order that we can get you a class to read on this very day, we are sending one from a previous year. In the early morning of September 14, 2002 in order to commence the celebration of Sri Radhastami in the opulently decorated Sri Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha, Srila Narayana Maharaja requested the devotees to sing "Sri Krsna Virahe" by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. After that he explained some of the verses as follows:]
sri krsna-virahe, radhikara dasa, ami to' sahite nari
yugala-milana, sukhera karana, jivana chadite pari
["I am absolutely unable to tolerate Sri Radhika's pitiable condition when She is suffering in separation from Sri Krsna, but I am fully prepared to immediately give up my life for the sake of Their happy reunion." (Verse 1)]
Only under the guidance of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is it possible to render service to Srimati Radhika. In the mood of a maidservant of Srimati Radhika, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written that he cannot tolerate Radhika's condition during the time of Her separation from Krsna. And, for Their meeting together, he is readily prepared to easily give up his life.
radhka-carana, tyajiya amara, ksaneke pralaya hoya
radhikara tare, sata-bara mari, se duhkha amar soya
["If I were ever to renounce Radhika's lotus feet for even an instant, I would be totally devastated. For Her sake I will gladly tolerate the pain and agony of death hundreds of times." (Verse 2)]
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is saying: "I can give up anything. I can even give up Krsna, but I cannot give up the lotus feet of Radhika, even for a moment. For the service of Radhika I am prepared to die hundreds and millions of times, but I could never tolerate giving up Her association for a second. When will that day come that I can render some service to Her lotus feet? How can I have attachment for this Radhika, and how can I attain the perfect service of Her lotus feet?
e heno radhara, carana yugale, paricarya pabo kabe
haha braja-jana, more doya kori, kabe vraja-vane laibe
["When will I be able to serve Radhika's two lotus feet? Alas, I beg you all, O residents of Vraja, please be merciful to me now. When will you take me into the forests of Vraja?" (Verse 3)]
vilasa manjari, ananga manjari, sri rupa manjari ara
amake tuliya, loho nija pade, deho more siddhi sara
["O Vilasa Manjari! O Ananga Manjari! O Rupa Manjari! Please lift me up and bring me close to your own lotus feet, thereby bestowing upon me the ultimate perfection." (Verse 4)]
Weeping bitterly, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is praying, "O Vrajavasis, please be merciful to me! Place me in the service of the Divine Couple. Especially, please place me in the service of Radhika's lotus feet. When will that day come that Sri Vilasa Manjari and others will take me to Vraja? I long to render service."
[The devotees then sang Srila Gaura-Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja's "Uddesye Racita Gita Boliya Pracalita," (The Song Glorifying the Life Goal of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami)]
[The following is the first Bengali verse and the English translations of all the verses:]
Kothaya go premamyi radhe radhe
Radhe, radhe go, jaya radhe, radhe
Where is She who is full of prema? All glories to Sri Radha. (1)
O Radha! Please give me Your darsana and save my life. Your wretched beggar calls out to You, "Radhe, Radhe!" (2)
O Radha, You enjoy pleasure pastimes in the forest of Vrndavana, wherein You enchant the mind of Krsna. (3)
O Radha, You are the crest-jewel among Your eight principal sakhis. O Radha, daughter of Vrsabhanu Baba. (4)
Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was always calling out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (5)
…sometimes at Kesi Ghata, sometimes at Vamsi Vata. (6)
…sometimes in Nidhuvana, sometimes at Seva Kunja. (7)
…sometimes at Radha Kunda, sometimes at Syama Kunda. (8)
…sometimes at Kusuma Sarovara, sometimes at Giriraja Govardhana. (9)
…sometimes at Talavana, sometimes at Tamalvana. (10)
Raghunatha dasa wears simple cloth which appears to be dirty because he is always rolling on the earth crying out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (11)
Calling out "Radhe! Radhe," his eyes are bursting with a flood of tears. (12)
He wanders throughout the lanes of Vrndavana crying out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (13)
He knows nothing but Radha-Govinda throughout the day and night (56 dandas: 1 danda= 24 minutes). Radhe! Radhe! (14)
He takes rest for only 4 dandas (1 hr. 36 min.) At that time he receives darsana of Radha-Govinda in his dreams. Radhe! Radhe! (15)
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has heard from Srila Svarupa Damodara, Srila Raya Ramananda, Srila Rupa Gosvami, and especially from Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, and thus he is presenting this tattva. Srimati Radhika's name is Govinda-nandini (She who makes Sri Krsna happy), and there is nothing higher than this.
Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has revealed some of the names of Radhika in his Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila chapter four. One of Her names is Govinda-nandini. Govinda is the controller of everything. He is the extreme limit of the conception of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. He is full with unlimited opulence and sweetness. Who can give happiness to Him? Only one personality can do so - Krsna Himself in the form of Srimati Radhika.
She is Govinda-mohini. Krsna attracts all living entities, including animals, trees and creepers. He especially attracts all the Vraja gopis, but Radhika can attract Him. Krsna bewilders everyone in this world by His maya-sakti, and in the spiritual world He bewilders all by His beautiful form, qualities, and pastimes. He can bewilder everyone; yet Srimati Radhika can bewilder Him.
Radhika is Govinda-sarvasya. She is everything to Krsna. She is the be-all-and-end-all of Krsna; for Him, nothing remains.
Sri Radha is Sarva-kanta siramoni, the crown jewel of all Krsna's beloveds. All the gopis were searching for Krsna after His disappearance from the Rasa dance. When Her own svapaksa gopis (the gopis from Her own group) saw Her footprints along with Krsna's, they became very happy – knowing them to be Hers. However, when the other groups of gopis saw them, not knowing to whom they belonged, they could only understand that this particular gopi had served Krsna more than any other – and therefore He left the Rasa dance with Her alone.
Sri Radha Herself has become Candravali and all the other gopis. There is no other beloved of Krsna – only Srimati Radhika. She Herself has become all the Laksmis (Goddesses of Fortune), and all the queens of Dvaraka. If one thinks deeply about this, he will understand Her greatness. Sita-devi and all the Laksmis are manifestations of Radha, and she assumes these forms to fulfill Krsna's desires.
She is Krsna-mayi; She sees Krsna everywhere – inside and outside of Herself. Wherever Her mind or senses go, it is only for and about Krsna. When She sees a tamal tree She thinks, "Oh, there is Krsna." Her name is Radhika because She fulfills all the desires of Krsna and because He Himself worships Her. An example of His worshipping Her is when He took Her to a solitary place after leaving the Rasa dance, at which time even the vipaksa-gopis (rival party) also confirm this. Radhika is Para-devata, just as Krsna is: She is the most worshipable of all. Moreover, She is worshiped by Krsna Himself. Is she not therefore worshipable by everyone?
Once Radhika asked Vrnda-devi, "Where are you coming from?" Vrnda-devi replied, "I'm coming from Radha-kunda. I saw Krsna there." Radharani asked, "What was He doing?" Vrnda-devi replied that He was dancing. Radha then asked, "Oh, who was His dancing teacher?" Vrnda-devi told Her, Your reflection, Radhika, which He sees in every tree.
Whatever prema exists in this world comes from Radhika. She is the mother of everyone because she nourishes everyone by giving them prema. Krsna is the principle Deity of all jivas, and Radhika is also. This is confirmed in the Brahma Samhita:
ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis
tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih
goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
["I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."]
Sri Radhika is Sarva-Laksmi-mayi, which means that all the various gopis emanate from Her, and She is therefore the predominating deity of all the sakhis. As many beloveds as there are, She is their controlling deity.
She is Kanti, which means that during Rasa-lila, only She could fulfill all the desires of Sri Krsna. There were hundreds of millions of gopis dancing, but when Radhika left, the Rasa dance stopped. Krsna appears as Mahaprabhu in order to taste all of Radhika's loving moods; He cannot do so in Vraja-lila.
What are Krsna's thoughts when He is in Mathura and Dvaraka and feeling separation from Radhika? He prays to Her, "O most worshipful Radha! My mind always remains with You. I'm always anxious for the dust of Your lotus feet. Somehow, in some form, I stay in Vrndavana. O Srimati Radhika, I am roaming in those forests, playing on My flute, only in search for You. O Radhika, I go to the Yamuna, not to take bath, but only to meet with You. Otherwise there is no need to go there. I sit on the bank of Yamuna only to meet with You and serve You.
"I stopped grazing cows, and I stopped all other activities. Seeing Your beauty I became so eager; My eyes moved here and there and My mind was restless. I used to wait underneath a kadamba tree, thinking, 'When will She come by this way?' I am meditating upon Your qualities, and upon Your beauty which is like the auspicious svati-naksatra (constellation). The skylark (cakora bird) won't drink any other water besides the water coming from the clouds at the time of the svati-constellation. Similarly, I am like a cakora bird, and Your beauty is like rain falling during that constellation. I am eagerly waiting for You, to have Your darsana. Your beauty and qualities steal My heart. I don't want those qualities to steal My heart, but I forget everything else in My separation from You."
Hearing this, Radhika replied, "O Prananatha, lord of My life's breath, I am Your eternal servant and You are My life and soul, the only love in My life. I surrender Myself unto Your lotus feet. You may love Me or neglect Me, in Your life or by Your mind. You can leave Me and thus bring Me suffering. Whatever You desire, Your happiness is My happiness and Your life is My life. I don't want anything other than Your happiness in my life. As You realize My happiness and sorrows, so I can realize Yours. You feel happiness by seeing Me, but by seeing You I become millions of times more happy. There is no comparison to My happiness in these worlds. I am happy only by seeing Your happiness. I am always blissful because I have no concept of the happiness of others; I only desire Your happiness. I want to see Your happiness from morning to night, and night to morning.
"By seeing Me You become happy, and therefore I decorate Myself in many ways with srngara (ornaments) and alankara (decorations). I do this for You only; I do this because by seeing Me with all these ornaments and decorations You feel great happiness. I dedicate Myself unto Your lotus feet only to increase Your satisfaction and fulfill Your desires. I become so happy when You say to Me, 'You are My beloved, My mistress, My life and soul.' No one can understand the happiness I feel; there is no comparison to it in this world.
"When You say to Me, 'O Swaminiji, O Pranesvari Radhike, O My kanta,' My heart becomes overjoyed, because You are happy when You taste the words Radha-Pranesvari, etc. I feel shy to hear this, and yet I am also very happy. Externally I feel shy, but internally I am extremely happy."
Then Krsna said to Radhika, "You are the abode of matchless love. O Vrsabhanu-nandini, (daughter of Vrsabhanu Maharaja), You are the abode of all rasas, and what am I? I am always moving from one forest to another to graze cows. I'm foolish and irreligious. Other than to herd cows, I have no intelligence at all. I don't know the rules and regulations of love, and only You can teach Me these principles. I am always running after cows and playing hide and seek and other games like a village boy, whereas You are the river of prema. I'm just like terribly hot sand in the summer and You, on the other hand, are the river of love. How can there be any comparison between Yourself and Myself? When You give Me the darsana of Your love, I immediately become happy –there is no comparison to my happiness. When You bestow Your mercy and look towards Me, I become indebted to You." Krsna also told the gopis during rasa-lila: "I have no qualification. I am only a beggar of Your love."
na paraye 'ham niravadya-samyujam
sva-sadhu-krtyam vibudhayusapi vah
ya mabhajan durjara-geha-srnkhalah
samvrscya tad vah pratiyatu sadhuna
["I am not able to repay My debt for your spotless service, even within a lifetime of Brahma. Your connection with Me is beyond reproach. You have Me, cutting off all domestic ties, which are difficult to break. Therefore please let your own glorious deeds be your compensation." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.32.22)]
Now He confirmed this, as He told Sri Radha, "I am so indebted to You. How can I become free from this debt? Please be merciful; You are the abode of mercy. Only You can give Me love and fulfill My desires."
Hearing this, Srimati Radhika became shy and replied, "O Syamasundara, O You whose eyes are like lotus petals, O You who are the son of the king of Vraja. You steal My heart. To meet with You I shall give up all the rules and regulations of society. I will leave My in-laws house, I will give up all consideration of shyness, respect from others, religion, and irreligion. I want to come to You and keep You as My own. I want to keep You, even for a moment, but I am only a village girl. I have no quality at all and I am not beautiful. You, on the other hand, are extremely qualified and beautiful, and You are the ornament of Your dynasty. There is no rasa in me. I have no idea about rasa, whereas You are the abode of rasa. You are the ocean of mercy, so please bestow Your mercy on Me. This is My desire."
Without the mercy of Srila Rupa Gosvamipada and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, no one would have been able to write about these topics. The conception that Radhika is the center of all is exclusively for those in our Gaudiya Sampradaya. We have the speciality that "Krsna is feeling separation from Radhika." No other acaryas can write about all the truths present herein.
Srila Gaura-Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja is glorifying and praying to Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami in this kirtana called "Uddesye Racita Gita Boliya Pracalita." He says there that Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was always roaming, sometimes in Nidhuvana and sometimes in Vamsivata, and calling out, "Radhe! Radhe!"
Gaura premanande.
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SRI RADHASTAMI
[This year, 2009, Sri Radhastami is August 28th, in India. As usual, Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja is conducting the festivities throughout the day at Sri Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha in Mathura. In order that we can get you a class to read on this very day, we are sending one from a previous year. In the early morning of September 14, 2002 in order to commence the celebration of Sri Radhastami in the opulently decorated Sri Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha, Srila Narayana Maharaja requested the devotees to sing "Sri Krsna Virahe" by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. After that he explained some of the verses as follows:]
sri krsna-virahe, radhikara dasa, ami to' sahite nari
yugala-milana, sukhera karana, jivana chadite pari
["I am absolutely unable to tolerate Sri Radhika's pitiable condition when She is suffering in separation from Sri Krsna, but I am fully prepared to immediately give up my life for the sake of Their happy reunion." (Verse 1)]
Only under the guidance of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is it possible to render service to Srimati Radhika. In the mood of a maidservant of Srimati Radhika, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written that he cannot tolerate Radhika's condition during the time of Her separation from Krsna. And, for Their meeting together, he is readily prepared to easily give up his life.
radhka-carana, tyajiya amara, ksaneke pralaya hoya
radhikara tare, sata-bara mari, se duhkha amar soya
["If I were ever to renounce Radhika's lotus feet for even an instant, I would be totally devastated. For Her sake I will gladly tolerate the pain and agony of death hundreds of times." (Verse 2)]
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is saying: "I can give up anything. I can even give up Krsna, but I cannot give up the lotus feet of Radhika, even for a moment. For the service of Radhika I am prepared to die hundreds and millions of times, but I could never tolerate giving up Her association for a second. When will that day come that I can render some service to Her lotus feet? How can I have attachment for this Radhika, and how can I attain the perfect service of Her lotus feet?
e heno radhara, carana yugale, paricarya pabo kabe
haha braja-jana, more doya kori, kabe vraja-vane laibe
["When will I be able to serve Radhika's two lotus feet? Alas, I beg you all, O residents of Vraja, please be merciful to me now. When will you take me into the forests of Vraja?" (Verse 3)]
vilasa manjari, ananga manjari, sri rupa manjari ara
amake tuliya, loho nija pade, deho more siddhi sara
["O Vilasa Manjari! O Ananga Manjari! O Rupa Manjari! Please lift me up and bring me close to your own lotus feet, thereby bestowing upon me the ultimate perfection." (Verse 4)]
Weeping bitterly, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is praying, "O Vrajavasis, please be merciful to me! Place me in the service of the Divine Couple. Especially, please place me in the service of Radhika's lotus feet. When will that day come that Sri Vilasa Manjari and others will take me to Vraja? I long to render service."
[The devotees then sang Srila Gaura-Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja's "Uddesye Racita Gita Boliya Pracalita," (The Song Glorifying the Life Goal of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami)]
[The following is the first Bengali verse and the English translations of all the verses:]
Kothaya go premamyi radhe radhe
Radhe, radhe go, jaya radhe, radhe
Where is She who is full of prema? All glories to Sri Radha. (1)
O Radha! Please give me Your darsana and save my life. Your wretched beggar calls out to You, "Radhe, Radhe!" (2)
O Radha, You enjoy pleasure pastimes in the forest of Vrndavana, wherein You enchant the mind of Krsna. (3)
O Radha, You are the crest-jewel among Your eight principal sakhis. O Radha, daughter of Vrsabhanu Baba. (4)
Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was always calling out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (5)
…sometimes at Kesi Ghata, sometimes at Vamsi Vata. (6)
…sometimes in Nidhuvana, sometimes at Seva Kunja. (7)
…sometimes at Radha Kunda, sometimes at Syama Kunda. (8)
…sometimes at Kusuma Sarovara, sometimes at Giriraja Govardhana. (9)
…sometimes at Talavana, sometimes at Tamalvana. (10)
Raghunatha dasa wears simple cloth which appears to be dirty because he is always rolling on the earth crying out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (11)
Calling out "Radhe! Radhe," his eyes are bursting with a flood of tears. (12)
He wanders throughout the lanes of Vrndavana crying out, "Radhe! Radhe!" (13)
He knows nothing but Radha-Govinda throughout the day and night (56 dandas: 1 danda= 24 minutes). Radhe! Radhe! (14)
He takes rest for only 4 dandas (1 hr. 36 min.) At that time he receives darsana of Radha-Govinda in his dreams. Radhe! Radhe! (15)
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has heard from Srila Svarupa Damodara, Srila Raya Ramananda, Srila Rupa Gosvami, and especially from Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, and thus he is presenting this tattva. Srimati Radhika's name is Govinda-nandini (She who makes Sri Krsna happy), and there is nothing higher than this.
Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has revealed some of the names of Radhika in his Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila chapter four. One of Her names is Govinda-nandini. Govinda is the controller of everything. He is the extreme limit of the conception of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. He is full with unlimited opulence and sweetness. Who can give happiness to Him? Only one personality can do so - Krsna Himself in the form of Srimati Radhika.
She is Govinda-mohini. Krsna attracts all living entities, including animals, trees and creepers. He especially attracts all the Vraja gopis, but Radhika can attract Him. Krsna bewilders everyone in this world by His maya-sakti, and in the spiritual world He bewilders all by His beautiful form, qualities, and pastimes. He can bewilder everyone; yet Srimati Radhika can bewilder Him.
Radhika is Govinda-sarvasya. She is everything to Krsna. She is the be-all-and-end-all of Krsna; for Him, nothing remains.
Sri Radha is Sarva-kanta siramoni, the crown jewel of all Krsna's beloveds. All the gopis were searching for Krsna after His disappearance from the Rasa dance. When Her own svapaksa gopis (the gopis from Her own group) saw Her footprints along with Krsna's, they became very happy – knowing them to be Hers. However, when the other groups of gopis saw them, not knowing to whom they belonged, they could only understand that this particular gopi had served Krsna more than any other – and therefore He left the Rasa dance with Her alone.
Sri Radha Herself has become Candravali and all the other gopis. There is no other beloved of Krsna – only Srimati Radhika. She Herself has become all the Laksmis (Goddesses of Fortune), and all the queens of Dvaraka. If one thinks deeply about this, he will understand Her greatness. Sita-devi and all the Laksmis are manifestations of Radha, and she assumes these forms to fulfill Krsna's desires.
She is Krsna-mayi; She sees Krsna everywhere – inside and outside of Herself. Wherever Her mind or senses go, it is only for and about Krsna. When She sees a tamal tree She thinks, "Oh, there is Krsna." Her name is Radhika because She fulfills all the desires of Krsna and because He Himself worships Her. An example of His worshipping Her is when He took Her to a solitary place after leaving the Rasa dance, at which time even the vipaksa-gopis (rival party) also confirm this. Radhika is Para-devata, just as Krsna is: She is the most worshipable of all. Moreover, She is worshiped by Krsna Himself. Is she not therefore worshipable by everyone?
Once Radhika asked Vrnda-devi, "Where are you coming from?" Vrnda-devi replied, "I'm coming from Radha-kunda. I saw Krsna there." Radharani asked, "What was He doing?" Vrnda-devi replied that He was dancing. Radha then asked, "Oh, who was His dancing teacher?" Vrnda-devi told Her, Your reflection, Radhika, which He sees in every tree.
Whatever prema exists in this world comes from Radhika. She is the mother of everyone because she nourishes everyone by giving them prema. Krsna is the principle Deity of all jivas, and Radhika is also. This is confirmed in the Brahma Samhita:
ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis
tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih
goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
["I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."]
Sri Radhika is Sarva-Laksmi-mayi, which means that all the various gopis emanate from Her, and She is therefore the predominating deity of all the sakhis. As many beloveds as there are, She is their controlling deity.
She is Kanti, which means that during Rasa-lila, only She could fulfill all the desires of Sri Krsna. There were hundreds of millions of gopis dancing, but when Radhika left, the Rasa dance stopped. Krsna appears as Mahaprabhu in order to taste all of Radhika's loving moods; He cannot do so in Vraja-lila.
What are Krsna's thoughts when He is in Mathura and Dvaraka and feeling separation from Radhika? He prays to Her, "O most worshipful Radha! My mind always remains with You. I'm always anxious for the dust of Your lotus feet. Somehow, in some form, I stay in Vrndavana. O Srimati Radhika, I am roaming in those forests, playing on My flute, only in search for You. O Radhika, I go to the Yamuna, not to take bath, but only to meet with You. Otherwise there is no need to go there. I sit on the bank of Yamuna only to meet with You and serve You.
"I stopped grazing cows, and I stopped all other activities. Seeing Your beauty I became so eager; My eyes moved here and there and My mind was restless. I used to wait underneath a kadamba tree, thinking, 'When will She come by this way?' I am meditating upon Your qualities, and upon Your beauty which is like the auspicious svati-naksatra (constellation). The skylark (cakora bird) won't drink any other water besides the water coming from the clouds at the time of the svati-constellation. Similarly, I am like a cakora bird, and Your beauty is like rain falling during that constellation. I am eagerly waiting for You, to have Your darsana. Your beauty and qualities steal My heart. I don't want those qualities to steal My heart, but I forget everything else in My separation from You."
Hearing this, Radhika replied, "O Prananatha, lord of My life's breath, I am Your eternal servant and You are My life and soul, the only love in My life. I surrender Myself unto Your lotus feet. You may love Me or neglect Me, in Your life or by Your mind. You can leave Me and thus bring Me suffering. Whatever You desire, Your happiness is My happiness and Your life is My life. I don't want anything other than Your happiness in my life. As You realize My happiness and sorrows, so I can realize Yours. You feel happiness by seeing Me, but by seeing You I become millions of times more happy. There is no comparison to My happiness in these worlds. I am happy only by seeing Your happiness. I am always blissful because I have no concept of the happiness of others; I only desire Your happiness. I want to see Your happiness from morning to night, and night to morning.
"By seeing Me You become happy, and therefore I decorate Myself in many ways with srngara (ornaments) and alankara (decorations). I do this for You only; I do this because by seeing Me with all these ornaments and decorations You feel great happiness. I dedicate Myself unto Your lotus feet only to increase Your satisfaction and fulfill Your desires. I become so happy when You say to Me, 'You are My beloved, My mistress, My life and soul.' No one can understand the happiness I feel; there is no comparison to it in this world.
"When You say to Me, 'O Swaminiji, O Pranesvari Radhike, O My kanta,' My heart becomes overjoyed, because You are happy when You taste the words Radha-Pranesvari, etc. I feel shy to hear this, and yet I am also very happy. Externally I feel shy, but internally I am extremely happy."
Then Krsna said to Radhika, "You are the abode of matchless love. O Vrsabhanu-nandini, (daughter of Vrsabhanu Maharaja), You are the abode of all rasas, and what am I? I am always moving from one forest to another to graze cows. I'm foolish and irreligious. Other than to herd cows, I have no intelligence at all. I don't know the rules and regulations of love, and only You can teach Me these principles. I am always running after cows and playing hide and seek and other games like a village boy, whereas You are the river of prema. I'm just like terribly hot sand in the summer and You, on the other hand, are the river of love. How can there be any comparison between Yourself and Myself? When You give Me the darsana of Your love, I immediately become happy –there is no comparison to my happiness. When You bestow Your mercy and look towards Me, I become indebted to You." Krsna also told the gopis during rasa-lila: "I have no qualification. I am only a beggar of Your love."
na paraye 'ham niravadya-samyujam
sva-sadhu-krtyam vibudhayusapi vah
ya mabhajan durjara-geha-srnkhalah
samvrscya tad vah pratiyatu sadhuna
["I am not able to repay My debt for your spotless service, even within a lifetime of Brahma. Your connection with Me is beyond reproach. You have Me, cutting off all domestic ties, which are difficult to break. Therefore please let your own glorious deeds be your compensation." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.32.22)]
Now He confirmed this, as He told Sri Radha, "I am so indebted to You. How can I become free from this debt? Please be merciful; You are the abode of mercy. Only You can give Me love and fulfill My desires."
Hearing this, Srimati Radhika became shy and replied, "O Syamasundara, O You whose eyes are like lotus petals, O You who are the son of the king of Vraja. You steal My heart. To meet with You I shall give up all the rules and regulations of society. I will leave My in-laws house, I will give up all consideration of shyness, respect from others, religion, and irreligion. I want to come to You and keep You as My own. I want to keep You, even for a moment, but I am only a village girl. I have no quality at all and I am not beautiful. You, on the other hand, are extremely qualified and beautiful, and You are the ornament of Your dynasty. There is no rasa in me. I have no idea about rasa, whereas You are the abode of rasa. You are the ocean of mercy, so please bestow Your mercy on Me. This is My desire."
Without the mercy of Srila Rupa Gosvamipada and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, no one would have been able to write about these topics. The conception that Radhika is the center of all is exclusively for those in our Gaudiya Sampradaya. We have the speciality that "Krsna is feeling separation from Radhika." No other acaryas can write about all the truths present herein.
Srila Gaura-Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja is glorifying and praying to Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami in this kirtana called "Uddesye Racita Gita Boliya Pracalita." He says there that Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was always roaming, sometimes in Nidhuvana and sometimes in Vamsivata, and calling out, "Radhe! Radhe!"
Gaura premanande.
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Wednesday, August 26, 2009
Lalitha -Devi`s appeareance Day
Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja
LALITA-DEVI'S APPEARANCE DAY
[This year, 2009, Srimati Lalita-devi’s appearance day is on August 27 (in India), one day before Radhastami. Four years agos, Srila Narayana Maharaja and the assembled devotees observed the appearance day of Sri Radha's most intimate sakhi, Srimati Lalita-devi on September 10. The following is a transcription of the class given in her glorification, and it explains her significance in our personal lives:]
Lalita-devi was born in the village of Karehla, and later on her father brought her to Uccagaon, the place of her pastimes (lila-sthali). There are still many evidences of her pastimes here, like a rock containing the imprints of her lotus feet and some small utensils she used when she and the other sakhis fed Krsna there. When the sun-rays fall on the imprints of those pots and plates, they glitter and shine. All of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis used to play with Krsna and Lalita in Uccagaon, and there are many places there where you can see their footprints to this day.
On the hill there is a slippery rock showing a specific pastime that was enacted in a marriage arena. There, the gopis arranged a special kind of marriage between Lalita and Krsna. This should not be misunderstood as a real marriage, but rather a play marriage, like the marriage that was once enacted between Srimati Radhika and Krsna. This is technically known as Gandharva marriage.
In that pastime, Krsna had been sitting beside Lalita, and the sakhis began to play mischievously. Visakha and some of the other sakhis tied Sri Lalita's veil to Krsna's pitambara (yellow shawl). Then suddenly, on the indication of Srimati Radhika, Rangadevi and other sakhis began to sing wedding songs while Tungavidya and others uttered wedding mantras, and the remaining sakhis showered flowers on Sri Krsna and Lalita.
When Lalita noticed that something tricky was being done to her, she tried to run away, but because her garments were tied to Krsna's pitambara, she could not do so. All the sakhis then surrounded the couple and married them. Even today, one can see the indication of the slide on the hill, as well as the markings of alta (red lac) from the gopis’ feet. Although this pastime took place 5000 years ago, you can still visualize it with your own eyes.
Lalita is 27 days elder than Radharani. [According to the tithi calculation, Lalita-devi's appearance day falls on the day before Srimati Radhika's appearance day.] She generally has the same loving mood towards both Radha and Krsna, yet she is more inclined towards Srimati Radhika.
The following is the Sanskrit song called Sri Lalita-astakam, along with its translation, and I will further explain each verse. This Lalita-astakam was composed by Srila Rupa Gosvami:
radha-mukunda-pada-sambhava-gharma-bindu
nirmanchanopakarani-krta-deha-laksam
uttunga-sauhrda-visesa-vasat pragalbham
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer my obeisance unto the outspoken Sri Lalita-devi, who is charmingly endowed with many beautiful, sweet qualities (sulalita). She has natural expertise in all arts (lalita), and thus her service self-manifests. She wipes away the glittering drops of perspiration which appear upon the lotus feet of Sri Radha and Madhava when They meet. She is perpetually immersed in the most elevated mellow of sauhrda-rasa, or undivided absorption in fulfilling the heart's desire of her intimate friend Srimati Radhika. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 1)]
There are four types of sakhis: svapaksa, vipaksa, tatastha and suhrt. Svapaksa means those sakhis who are totally favorably disposed towards Srimati Radhika. Vipaksa means those gopis who are totally favorably disposed towards Candravali and opposed to Radhika. Tatastha means those who are neutral towards Srimati Radhika and more favorably disposed towards Candravali. Suhrt means those who are more favorably disposed towards Srimati Radhika and neutral towards Candravali. Suhrt gopis never do anything unfavorable towards Srimati Radhika.
Lalita-devi and Visakha-devi are examples of gopis who are svapaksa to Srimati Radhika, Candravali is vipaksa, Bhadra is tatastha, and Syamala is suhrt.
The mood of Lalita is that she is always trying to favorably serve the pastimes of Radha and Krsna; she always tries to please Them. She engages in millions upon millions of endeavors to please Them. When Radha and Krsna meet and engage in amorous pastimes, Lalita wipes away the droplets of perspiration on Their lotus feet. This means that she is engaged day and night in the service of Their sweet pastimes.
There are two types of services in madhurya-rasa (conjugal rasa). One is in the mood of the manjaris and the other in the mood of the sakhis. Lalita always serves in the mood of a sakhi. One of her qualities is that she has some controlling mentality. She can command both Radha and Krsna, but at the same time she is friendly disposed towards both of Them. She is always immersed in the ocean of love. She is very beautiful and very sweet, but at the same time very sober and composed. Her heart is so sweet that she attracts the heart of all others, but at the same time she is pragalbha, which means she can speak harsh words, and can thus control both Radha and Krsna.
raka-sudha-kirana-mandala-kanti-dandi
vaktra-sriyam cakita-caru-camuru-netram
radha-prasadhana-vidhana-kala-prasiddham
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi whose beautiful face mocks the brilliance of the full moon, whose eyes are ever-restless like those of a startled doe, who is famous for her extraordinary expertise in the art of dressing Srimati Radhika, and who is the treasure-house of unlimited feminine qualities. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 2)]
This verse begins by describing Srimati Lalita-devi's beauty. She is so beautiful that her beauty surpasses the combined beauty of millions of moons, and her eyes are said to be so restless that they can defeat the restlessness of the eyes of a female deer. Her specific quality is that she is very expert in applying make-up, and especially in arranging the hair decoration of Srimati Radhika. Although all the eight principle sakhis are very famous in putting on the bodily decorations and applying the make-up of Srimati Radhika, Lalita and Visakha are the most expert. Moreover, of these two, Lalita is considered the most proficient.
The pastime of decorating Srimati Radhika by Lalita and the other sakhis is described in "Govinda-lilamrta", written by Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, and in "Krsna-bhavanamrta," written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Those who want to serve Radha and Krsna in the mood of a manjari should seriously take help from these scriptures. Sadhakas (devotional practitioners) can find pastimes such as the above-mentioned in those books, and they can try to be absorbed in them at the time of their devotional practices.
With reference to the verse above, Lalita and the other sakhis tell Srimati Radhika, "When you go to meet with Krsna, this is how You should behave with Him." They want Sri Krsna to be totally under the spell of Srimati Radhika.
While they are applying kajal (black eyeliner), they remind Srimati Radhika or Her previous pastimes with Krsna. For example, once, when She was going out to meet Krsna, She forgot to put kajal on one of Her eyes, and Krsna Himself put it on upon Her arrival. Similar pastimes are brought to the attention of Srimati Radhika at the time of putting on Her make-up, and in that way Her mood of bringing pleasure to Krsna is enhanced. When the gopis put the tilaka mark on Her forehead, they recite the kama-yantra, which still further inspires Srimati Radhika in the mood of Her service to Krsna.
All these pastimes are arranged by Lalita-devi, and therefore she is described as the fountainhead of various wonderful qualities.
lasyollasad-bhujaga-satru-patatra-citra
pattamsukabharana-kanculikancitangim
gorocana-ruci-vigarhana-gaurimanam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi whose body is adorned with a splendid sari as brilliant as the multi-colored tail-feathers of an ecstatically dancing peacock, whose breast is covered with an exceedingly attractive blouse (kanculi), whose hair part is decorated with shimmering red vermilion, and who wears various necklaces and other jeweled ornaments. Her golden complexion defeats that of even gorocana, the bright golden pigment that comes when rain-water during the svati-naksatra constellation hits the head of a qualified cow, and she possesses innumerable good qualities. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 3)]
This verse gives a similarity with a peacock. When the rainy season comes, the peacock becomes very happy. He has been especially gifted by God to have beautiful colors on his feathers, and he expresses his happiness on seeing the clouds by spreading his wings. In the same way, Srimati Lalita-devi's dresses are so beautifully ornamented and colored that they express the mood of a peacock showing his happiness by spreading his wings. The color of her sari, various kinds of necklaces and all her ornaments brilliantly glitter, and all this glittering combined with the luster of her own body give a profound impression.
The word gorocana is also mentioned in this verse. In that connection there is a particular constellation called svati-naksatra. When rain water hits the hoof of a cow at that time, it becomes yellow, like the color of turmeric. This very special yellow color of gorocana defeats even the shimmer of gold, and the substance gorocana is also considered very costly. This is the impression Lalita-devi gives when she is serving Srimati Radhika with all her paraphernalia, ornaments and beauty.
dhurte vrajendra-tanaye tanu susthu-vamyam
ma daksina bhava kalankini laghavaya
radhe giram srnu hitam iti siksayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi, the charming treasure-house of all good qualities, who instructs Srimati Radhika in this way: "O Kalankini (unchaste one)! Radhe! Listen to my good instructions which are favorable for you! Vrajendra-nandana is very crafty (dhurta). Don't display Your mood of gentle submission (daksina bhava) to Him; instead, in all circumstances be contrary." (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 4)]
radham abhi vraja-pateh krtam atmajena
kutam manag api vilokya vilohitaksim
vag-bhangibhis tam acirena vilajjayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto the abode of all good qualities, the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, who, upon hearing Sri Krsna speak even a few sly words to Srimati Radhika, immediately becomes furious and shames Krsna with her biting, sarcastic remarks, "You are so truthful and simple-hearted, and such a chaste lover!" (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 5)]
Srimati Radhika is controlled by the extreme love of Lalita-sakhi. When She is with Lalita-sakhi, Lalita can even chastise Her: "When Krsna comes, You should remain very unsubmissive and enter a sulky mood." Radhika may reply, "What can I do? As soon as I see Krsna in the distance, My sulky mood goes away. I cannot maintain it." Then with a raised finger, Lalita says, "Don't give up your unsubmissive mood. You should chastise Krsna, for He has so many bad qualities. He is crooked and unchaste. He is a cheater. He will come to You early in the morning – and what will He do? He will hold onto Your feet and beg forgiveness. But don't believe anything He says. Don't become submissive. Instead, You should chastise Him!"
Sakhis are of two types and two moods: (1) daksina – right wing or submissive. This is called ghrta-sneha (like ghee), and it is a quality of Candravali's group. (2) vamya – contrary or unsubmissive. This is called madhu-sneha (like honey), and it is a quality of Radhika's group. [Ghee is wholesome, but without much taste, whereas honey is wholesome and also sweet]
Radhika's mood is called vamya (left-wing, contrary, or unsubmissive) and Candravali's mood is called daksina (right-wing, or submissive). Only those gopis in the mood of vamya can completely control Krsna. The two groups, that is, Radhika's group and Candravali's group, do not appreciate each other. Candravali criticizes Srimati Radhika and Her group, saying, "How can they dare to do maan (be in a sulky mood) towards Krsna? He is so sweet and lovely!" Srimati Radhika and Her group think, "Why does Candravali become so submissive towards Krsna!?" Srimati Radhika says, "One must apply a weapon to control Krsna. Why doesn't Candravali control Him like us? How can she serve Him if she is not like us?" Thus, both groups cannot appreciate each other's moods.
Lalita is the siksa-guru of all the gopis in Radhika's group, and also of Radhika Herself. Srila Rupa Gosvami writes: Lalita-devi sometimes chastises Radhika, saying, "Oh Kalankini, Oh unchaste one, [She will be called unchaste by Her in-laws, and for that reason She may try to be contrary, but Lalita-devi is telling Her here that ho matter what others say, She should still be contrary to Krsna.] don't become submissive to Krsna."
In this song, Srila Rupa Gosvami repeatedly offers his prostrated obeisances to Srimati Lalita-devi. If Sri Krsna approaches Srimati Radhika and uses some clever cheating words, Lalita-devi cannot tolerate it. In nisanta-lila, Srimati Radhika has been waiting all night for Krsna to come, and yet He doesn't come. He finally comes very early in the morning, with signs on His divine body that He has been with other gopis. Lalita-devi tells Him, "Don't come here. We don't want Your service. Where is Your beloved? You should go to her." His eyes are very red and other symptoms are there. Lalita then chastises Him, saying, "Yes, I know You, Krsna. You are very chaste, simple and honest." By her sharp and harsh words, she makes Krsna ashamed and causes Him to be shy. This is described in "Sri Krsna-bhavanamrta".
Krsna sometimes challenges the gopis in the forest: "Why have you come here? Don't you know I am Vrajendra, the King of Vrndavana? By picking flowers here, you are destroying My Vrndavana!"
At that time Lalita-devi says, "We know what kind of 'protector' You are. Actually you have never planted one seed or watered one tree. Instead, with Your hundreds of thousands of cows, it is You who destroys Vrndavana. We are the real owners of Vrndavana. We have planted every seed and watered every tree."
Krsna then says, "Don't you know who I am? I am a very religious person and I have never told a lie."
Then Srimati Lalita-devi says, "Yes, we know what type of religious person You are. We heard that when You were only seven days old, You killed a woman named Putana, who came as a mother to You. And which house in Vrndavana have You not stolen from? Are You the same religious person who stole all the clothing of the gopis? Are You the same religious person who performed rasa-lila with all the married gopis of Vrndavana?" Krsna then becomes ashamed.
vatsalya-vrnda-vasatim pasupala-rajnyah
sakhyanusiksana-kalasu gurum sakhinam
radha-balavaraja-jivita-nirvisesam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, who possesses all divine qualities; who is also the recipient of Yasoda-devi's parental affection; the guru of all the sakhis, instructing them in the art of friendship; and the very life of both Srimati Radhika and the younger brother of Baladeva. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 6)]
Without the presence of vatsalya-rasa (parental love), the glories of madhurya-rasa (conjugal love) do not manifest. One example occurs when Srimati Radhika goes with all Her sakhis to Nandagaon to cook. Mother Yasoda is there, but there is no disturbance. When Srimati Radhika goes to Nanda-bhavana with Lalita and the asta-sakhis (Radhika's eight most intimate friends), Yasoda-devi exhibits intense parental love towards Her – not less than the parental love she has towards her son Krsna. She also shows great affection to all the other sakhis and manjaris, because of their relation with Her.
All the asta-sakhis have so many excellent qualities, and therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami writes, "Of all the gopis, the asta-sakhis are the topmost." For example, Srimati Tungavidya-devi can speak with all types of birds and animals. She understands their language and can communicate with them. What can be greater than performing services to Srimati Radhika under the guidance of Lalita and Visakha and the other asta-sakhis? Lalita and Visakha are the siksa-gurus of all the gopis in the group of Srimati Radhika.
Lalita-devi's life and soul is Srimati Radhika and Krsna. Srila Rupa Gosvami prays, "I offer pranama again and again unto Srimati Lalita-devi."
yam kam api vraja-kule vrsabhanu-jayah
preksya sva-paksa-padavim anurudhyamanam
sadyas tad-ista-ghatanena krtarthayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
["I offer pranama unto the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, the treasure house of all good qualities. Upon seeing any young maiden anywhere in Vraja and discerning that she is inclined towards her priya-sakhi Srimati Radhika, Lalita immediately tells Radha that She must accept this person in Her own party (svapaksa). Radha obeys Lalita, who thus fulfills that maiden's desires." (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 7)]
Lalita has many charming qualities. What is Her greatest quality – Her quality that is most favorable for the sadhakas of this world? If she sees in Vrndavana any gopi, or anyone who has even a slight touch of a scent of desire to serve Srimati Radhika, she immediately fulfills that gopi's desire and gives her the unlimited wealth of the service of Srimati Radhika's lotus feet. If one has a one-pointed desire to perform service to Srimati Radhika under the direct guidance of Srimati Lalita-devi, and furthermore under the shelter of Sri Rupa Manjari, that devotee may know that Lalita-devi's shelter is the only path by which one can achieve this.
radha-vrajendra-suta-sangama-ranga-caryam
varyam viniscitavatim akhilotsavebhyah
tam gokula-priya-sakhi-nikuramba-mukhyam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi, the embodiment of all divine virtues and the foremost of all the favorite sakhis of Gokula. Her primary task is providing pleasure for Sri Radha-Govinda by arranging Their meetings – this delightful seva surpasses the enjoyment of all the best festivals combined together. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 8)]
Without the mercy of Lalita-devi, Giriraja or Yamuna, it is not possible to enter rasa-lila. The first and greatest is Srimati Lalita-devi herself, the second is Giriraja Govardhana and the third is Yamuna or Visakha-devi.
Lalita is the same age as Srimati Radhika, or she is twenty-seven days older. [It may happen one way in one yuga (millennium) and one way in another.] Like Radhika, Lalita also has all the qualities of being a yuthesvari – able to control her own group of subservient gopis. Why is she qualified to be a yuthesvari? If Bhadra, Syamala or Candravali can become yuthesvaris, then what to speak of Lalita-devi? However, despite being the same age as Radhika and having the qualification of a yuthesvari, still, the only goal of her life is to serve Srimati Radhika and to facilitate the meeting of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Her only happiness is the meeting of Radha and Krsna, and to achieve that goal, she never considers any amount of discomfort or suffering.
Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami prays,
padabjayos tava vina vara-dasyam eva
nanyat kadapi samaye kila devi yace
sakhyaya te mama namo 'stu namo 'stu nityam
dasyaya te mama raso 'stu raso 'stu satyam
[O Goddess! I shall never pray to You for anything but the excellent service of Your lotus feet. I offer my constant obeisances unto the idea of becoming Your friend, but I truly relish the idea of becoming Your maidservant. (Vilap-kusumanjali text 16)]
"Oh, I offer my obeisances millions of times to the position of a sakhi of Srimati Radhika. But my only real desire, birth after birth, is to attain the service of Srimati Radhika in the mood of a manjari. I have no desire to become equal to Radhika, like the sakhis."
Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami also prays, "I will never leave the feet of Radhika to go to Krsna. Even if Krsna goes to Dvaraka and calls me there, I will not go. However, if out of some madness Radhika has somehow gone to Dvaraka, I will fly even faster than Garuda to serve Her there." (Svaniyama dasakam, verses 3 and 4)
nandann amuni lalita-guna-lalitani
padyani yah pathati nirmala-drstir astau
pritya vikarsati janam nija-vrnda-madhye
tam kirtida-pati-kulojjvala-kalpa-valli
[If a person with a cheerful and pure heart recites this astakam in praise of Lalita-devi, he will be affectionately brought into Srimati Radhika's own group of sakhis. Lalita-devi is superbly ornamented with beauty, grace and charm, and, along with Srimati Radhika, is the effulgent wish-fulfilling creeper (kalpa-valli) of Vrsabhanu Maharaja's family that winds around the kalpa-vrksa of Krsna. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 9)]
In conclusion, Srimati Lalita-devi is the wish-fulfilling tree of the prema-seva (service in love) of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Whoever chants this Lalita-astakam will make Radha and Krsna happy. Moreover, Lalita-devi herself will be happy, and all our desires will be fulfilled.
LALITA-DEVI'S APPEARANCE DAY
[This year, 2009, Srimati Lalita-devi’s appearance day is on August 27 (in India), one day before Radhastami. Four years agos, Srila Narayana Maharaja and the assembled devotees observed the appearance day of Sri Radha's most intimate sakhi, Srimati Lalita-devi on September 10. The following is a transcription of the class given in her glorification, and it explains her significance in our personal lives:]
Lalita-devi was born in the village of Karehla, and later on her father brought her to Uccagaon, the place of her pastimes (lila-sthali). There are still many evidences of her pastimes here, like a rock containing the imprints of her lotus feet and some small utensils she used when she and the other sakhis fed Krsna there. When the sun-rays fall on the imprints of those pots and plates, they glitter and shine. All of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis used to play with Krsna and Lalita in Uccagaon, and there are many places there where you can see their footprints to this day.
On the hill there is a slippery rock showing a specific pastime that was enacted in a marriage arena. There, the gopis arranged a special kind of marriage between Lalita and Krsna. This should not be misunderstood as a real marriage, but rather a play marriage, like the marriage that was once enacted between Srimati Radhika and Krsna. This is technically known as Gandharva marriage.
In that pastime, Krsna had been sitting beside Lalita, and the sakhis began to play mischievously. Visakha and some of the other sakhis tied Sri Lalita's veil to Krsna's pitambara (yellow shawl). Then suddenly, on the indication of Srimati Radhika, Rangadevi and other sakhis began to sing wedding songs while Tungavidya and others uttered wedding mantras, and the remaining sakhis showered flowers on Sri Krsna and Lalita.
When Lalita noticed that something tricky was being done to her, she tried to run away, but because her garments were tied to Krsna's pitambara, she could not do so. All the sakhis then surrounded the couple and married them. Even today, one can see the indication of the slide on the hill, as well as the markings of alta (red lac) from the gopis’ feet. Although this pastime took place 5000 years ago, you can still visualize it with your own eyes.
Lalita is 27 days elder than Radharani. [According to the tithi calculation, Lalita-devi's appearance day falls on the day before Srimati Radhika's appearance day.] She generally has the same loving mood towards both Radha and Krsna, yet she is more inclined towards Srimati Radhika.
The following is the Sanskrit song called Sri Lalita-astakam, along with its translation, and I will further explain each verse. This Lalita-astakam was composed by Srila Rupa Gosvami:
radha-mukunda-pada-sambhava-gharma-bindu
nirmanchanopakarani-krta-deha-laksam
uttunga-sauhrda-visesa-vasat pragalbham
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer my obeisance unto the outspoken Sri Lalita-devi, who is charmingly endowed with many beautiful, sweet qualities (sulalita). She has natural expertise in all arts (lalita), and thus her service self-manifests. She wipes away the glittering drops of perspiration which appear upon the lotus feet of Sri Radha and Madhava when They meet. She is perpetually immersed in the most elevated mellow of sauhrda-rasa, or undivided absorption in fulfilling the heart's desire of her intimate friend Srimati Radhika. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 1)]
There are four types of sakhis: svapaksa, vipaksa, tatastha and suhrt. Svapaksa means those sakhis who are totally favorably disposed towards Srimati Radhika. Vipaksa means those gopis who are totally favorably disposed towards Candravali and opposed to Radhika. Tatastha means those who are neutral towards Srimati Radhika and more favorably disposed towards Candravali. Suhrt means those who are more favorably disposed towards Srimati Radhika and neutral towards Candravali. Suhrt gopis never do anything unfavorable towards Srimati Radhika.
Lalita-devi and Visakha-devi are examples of gopis who are svapaksa to Srimati Radhika, Candravali is vipaksa, Bhadra is tatastha, and Syamala is suhrt.
The mood of Lalita is that she is always trying to favorably serve the pastimes of Radha and Krsna; she always tries to please Them. She engages in millions upon millions of endeavors to please Them. When Radha and Krsna meet and engage in amorous pastimes, Lalita wipes away the droplets of perspiration on Their lotus feet. This means that she is engaged day and night in the service of Their sweet pastimes.
There are two types of services in madhurya-rasa (conjugal rasa). One is in the mood of the manjaris and the other in the mood of the sakhis. Lalita always serves in the mood of a sakhi. One of her qualities is that she has some controlling mentality. She can command both Radha and Krsna, but at the same time she is friendly disposed towards both of Them. She is always immersed in the ocean of love. She is very beautiful and very sweet, but at the same time very sober and composed. Her heart is so sweet that she attracts the heart of all others, but at the same time she is pragalbha, which means she can speak harsh words, and can thus control both Radha and Krsna.
raka-sudha-kirana-mandala-kanti-dandi
vaktra-sriyam cakita-caru-camuru-netram
radha-prasadhana-vidhana-kala-prasiddham
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi whose beautiful face mocks the brilliance of the full moon, whose eyes are ever-restless like those of a startled doe, who is famous for her extraordinary expertise in the art of dressing Srimati Radhika, and who is the treasure-house of unlimited feminine qualities. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 2)]
This verse begins by describing Srimati Lalita-devi's beauty. She is so beautiful that her beauty surpasses the combined beauty of millions of moons, and her eyes are said to be so restless that they can defeat the restlessness of the eyes of a female deer. Her specific quality is that she is very expert in applying make-up, and especially in arranging the hair decoration of Srimati Radhika. Although all the eight principle sakhis are very famous in putting on the bodily decorations and applying the make-up of Srimati Radhika, Lalita and Visakha are the most expert. Moreover, of these two, Lalita is considered the most proficient.
The pastime of decorating Srimati Radhika by Lalita and the other sakhis is described in "Govinda-lilamrta", written by Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, and in "Krsna-bhavanamrta," written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Those who want to serve Radha and Krsna in the mood of a manjari should seriously take help from these scriptures. Sadhakas (devotional practitioners) can find pastimes such as the above-mentioned in those books, and they can try to be absorbed in them at the time of their devotional practices.
With reference to the verse above, Lalita and the other sakhis tell Srimati Radhika, "When you go to meet with Krsna, this is how You should behave with Him." They want Sri Krsna to be totally under the spell of Srimati Radhika.
While they are applying kajal (black eyeliner), they remind Srimati Radhika or Her previous pastimes with Krsna. For example, once, when She was going out to meet Krsna, She forgot to put kajal on one of Her eyes, and Krsna Himself put it on upon Her arrival. Similar pastimes are brought to the attention of Srimati Radhika at the time of putting on Her make-up, and in that way Her mood of bringing pleasure to Krsna is enhanced. When the gopis put the tilaka mark on Her forehead, they recite the kama-yantra, which still further inspires Srimati Radhika in the mood of Her service to Krsna.
All these pastimes are arranged by Lalita-devi, and therefore she is described as the fountainhead of various wonderful qualities.
lasyollasad-bhujaga-satru-patatra-citra
pattamsukabharana-kanculikancitangim
gorocana-ruci-vigarhana-gaurimanam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi whose body is adorned with a splendid sari as brilliant as the multi-colored tail-feathers of an ecstatically dancing peacock, whose breast is covered with an exceedingly attractive blouse (kanculi), whose hair part is decorated with shimmering red vermilion, and who wears various necklaces and other jeweled ornaments. Her golden complexion defeats that of even gorocana, the bright golden pigment that comes when rain-water during the svati-naksatra constellation hits the head of a qualified cow, and she possesses innumerable good qualities. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 3)]
This verse gives a similarity with a peacock. When the rainy season comes, the peacock becomes very happy. He has been especially gifted by God to have beautiful colors on his feathers, and he expresses his happiness on seeing the clouds by spreading his wings. In the same way, Srimati Lalita-devi's dresses are so beautifully ornamented and colored that they express the mood of a peacock showing his happiness by spreading his wings. The color of her sari, various kinds of necklaces and all her ornaments brilliantly glitter, and all this glittering combined with the luster of her own body give a profound impression.
The word gorocana is also mentioned in this verse. In that connection there is a particular constellation called svati-naksatra. When rain water hits the hoof of a cow at that time, it becomes yellow, like the color of turmeric. This very special yellow color of gorocana defeats even the shimmer of gold, and the substance gorocana is also considered very costly. This is the impression Lalita-devi gives when she is serving Srimati Radhika with all her paraphernalia, ornaments and beauty.
dhurte vrajendra-tanaye tanu susthu-vamyam
ma daksina bhava kalankini laghavaya
radhe giram srnu hitam iti siksayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi, the charming treasure-house of all good qualities, who instructs Srimati Radhika in this way: "O Kalankini (unchaste one)! Radhe! Listen to my good instructions which are favorable for you! Vrajendra-nandana is very crafty (dhurta). Don't display Your mood of gentle submission (daksina bhava) to Him; instead, in all circumstances be contrary." (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 4)]
radham abhi vraja-pateh krtam atmajena
kutam manag api vilokya vilohitaksim
vag-bhangibhis tam acirena vilajjayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto the abode of all good qualities, the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, who, upon hearing Sri Krsna speak even a few sly words to Srimati Radhika, immediately becomes furious and shames Krsna with her biting, sarcastic remarks, "You are so truthful and simple-hearted, and such a chaste lover!" (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 5)]
Srimati Radhika is controlled by the extreme love of Lalita-sakhi. When She is with Lalita-sakhi, Lalita can even chastise Her: "When Krsna comes, You should remain very unsubmissive and enter a sulky mood." Radhika may reply, "What can I do? As soon as I see Krsna in the distance, My sulky mood goes away. I cannot maintain it." Then with a raised finger, Lalita says, "Don't give up your unsubmissive mood. You should chastise Krsna, for He has so many bad qualities. He is crooked and unchaste. He is a cheater. He will come to You early in the morning – and what will He do? He will hold onto Your feet and beg forgiveness. But don't believe anything He says. Don't become submissive. Instead, You should chastise Him!"
Sakhis are of two types and two moods: (1) daksina – right wing or submissive. This is called ghrta-sneha (like ghee), and it is a quality of Candravali's group. (2) vamya – contrary or unsubmissive. This is called madhu-sneha (like honey), and it is a quality of Radhika's group. [Ghee is wholesome, but without much taste, whereas honey is wholesome and also sweet]
Radhika's mood is called vamya (left-wing, contrary, or unsubmissive) and Candravali's mood is called daksina (right-wing, or submissive). Only those gopis in the mood of vamya can completely control Krsna. The two groups, that is, Radhika's group and Candravali's group, do not appreciate each other. Candravali criticizes Srimati Radhika and Her group, saying, "How can they dare to do maan (be in a sulky mood) towards Krsna? He is so sweet and lovely!" Srimati Radhika and Her group think, "Why does Candravali become so submissive towards Krsna!?" Srimati Radhika says, "One must apply a weapon to control Krsna. Why doesn't Candravali control Him like us? How can she serve Him if she is not like us?" Thus, both groups cannot appreciate each other's moods.
Lalita is the siksa-guru of all the gopis in Radhika's group, and also of Radhika Herself. Srila Rupa Gosvami writes: Lalita-devi sometimes chastises Radhika, saying, "Oh Kalankini, Oh unchaste one, [She will be called unchaste by Her in-laws, and for that reason She may try to be contrary, but Lalita-devi is telling Her here that ho matter what others say, She should still be contrary to Krsna.] don't become submissive to Krsna."
In this song, Srila Rupa Gosvami repeatedly offers his prostrated obeisances to Srimati Lalita-devi. If Sri Krsna approaches Srimati Radhika and uses some clever cheating words, Lalita-devi cannot tolerate it. In nisanta-lila, Srimati Radhika has been waiting all night for Krsna to come, and yet He doesn't come. He finally comes very early in the morning, with signs on His divine body that He has been with other gopis. Lalita-devi tells Him, "Don't come here. We don't want Your service. Where is Your beloved? You should go to her." His eyes are very red and other symptoms are there. Lalita then chastises Him, saying, "Yes, I know You, Krsna. You are very chaste, simple and honest." By her sharp and harsh words, she makes Krsna ashamed and causes Him to be shy. This is described in "Sri Krsna-bhavanamrta".
Krsna sometimes challenges the gopis in the forest: "Why have you come here? Don't you know I am Vrajendra, the King of Vrndavana? By picking flowers here, you are destroying My Vrndavana!"
At that time Lalita-devi says, "We know what kind of 'protector' You are. Actually you have never planted one seed or watered one tree. Instead, with Your hundreds of thousands of cows, it is You who destroys Vrndavana. We are the real owners of Vrndavana. We have planted every seed and watered every tree."
Krsna then says, "Don't you know who I am? I am a very religious person and I have never told a lie."
Then Srimati Lalita-devi says, "Yes, we know what type of religious person You are. We heard that when You were only seven days old, You killed a woman named Putana, who came as a mother to You. And which house in Vrndavana have You not stolen from? Are You the same religious person who stole all the clothing of the gopis? Are You the same religious person who performed rasa-lila with all the married gopis of Vrndavana?" Krsna then becomes ashamed.
vatsalya-vrnda-vasatim pasupala-rajnyah
sakhyanusiksana-kalasu gurum sakhinam
radha-balavaraja-jivita-nirvisesam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, who possesses all divine qualities; who is also the recipient of Yasoda-devi's parental affection; the guru of all the sakhis, instructing them in the art of friendship; and the very life of both Srimati Radhika and the younger brother of Baladeva. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 6)]
Without the presence of vatsalya-rasa (parental love), the glories of madhurya-rasa (conjugal love) do not manifest. One example occurs when Srimati Radhika goes with all Her sakhis to Nandagaon to cook. Mother Yasoda is there, but there is no disturbance. When Srimati Radhika goes to Nanda-bhavana with Lalita and the asta-sakhis (Radhika's eight most intimate friends), Yasoda-devi exhibits intense parental love towards Her – not less than the parental love she has towards her son Krsna. She also shows great affection to all the other sakhis and manjaris, because of their relation with Her.
All the asta-sakhis have so many excellent qualities, and therefore Srila Rupa Gosvami writes, "Of all the gopis, the asta-sakhis are the topmost." For example, Srimati Tungavidya-devi can speak with all types of birds and animals. She understands their language and can communicate with them. What can be greater than performing services to Srimati Radhika under the guidance of Lalita and Visakha and the other asta-sakhis? Lalita and Visakha are the siksa-gurus of all the gopis in the group of Srimati Radhika.
Lalita-devi's life and soul is Srimati Radhika and Krsna. Srila Rupa Gosvami prays, "I offer pranama again and again unto Srimati Lalita-devi."
yam kam api vraja-kule vrsabhanu-jayah
preksya sva-paksa-padavim anurudhyamanam
sadyas tad-ista-ghatanena krtarthayantim
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
["I offer pranama unto the supremely charming Sri Lalita-devi, the treasure house of all good qualities. Upon seeing any young maiden anywhere in Vraja and discerning that she is inclined towards her priya-sakhi Srimati Radhika, Lalita immediately tells Radha that She must accept this person in Her own party (svapaksa). Radha obeys Lalita, who thus fulfills that maiden's desires." (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 7)]
Lalita has many charming qualities. What is Her greatest quality – Her quality that is most favorable for the sadhakas of this world? If she sees in Vrndavana any gopi, or anyone who has even a slight touch of a scent of desire to serve Srimati Radhika, she immediately fulfills that gopi's desire and gives her the unlimited wealth of the service of Srimati Radhika's lotus feet. If one has a one-pointed desire to perform service to Srimati Radhika under the direct guidance of Srimati Lalita-devi, and furthermore under the shelter of Sri Rupa Manjari, that devotee may know that Lalita-devi's shelter is the only path by which one can achieve this.
radha-vrajendra-suta-sangama-ranga-caryam
varyam viniscitavatim akhilotsavebhyah
tam gokula-priya-sakhi-nikuramba-mukhyam
devim gunaih sulalitam lalitam namami
[I offer pranama unto Sri Lalita-devi, the embodiment of all divine virtues and the foremost of all the favorite sakhis of Gokula. Her primary task is providing pleasure for Sri Radha-Govinda by arranging Their meetings – this delightful seva surpasses the enjoyment of all the best festivals combined together. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 8)]
Without the mercy of Lalita-devi, Giriraja or Yamuna, it is not possible to enter rasa-lila. The first and greatest is Srimati Lalita-devi herself, the second is Giriraja Govardhana and the third is Yamuna or Visakha-devi.
Lalita is the same age as Srimati Radhika, or she is twenty-seven days older. [It may happen one way in one yuga (millennium) and one way in another.] Like Radhika, Lalita also has all the qualities of being a yuthesvari – able to control her own group of subservient gopis. Why is she qualified to be a yuthesvari? If Bhadra, Syamala or Candravali can become yuthesvaris, then what to speak of Lalita-devi? However, despite being the same age as Radhika and having the qualification of a yuthesvari, still, the only goal of her life is to serve Srimati Radhika and to facilitate the meeting of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Her only happiness is the meeting of Radha and Krsna, and to achieve that goal, she never considers any amount of discomfort or suffering.
Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami prays,
padabjayos tava vina vara-dasyam eva
nanyat kadapi samaye kila devi yace
sakhyaya te mama namo 'stu namo 'stu nityam
dasyaya te mama raso 'stu raso 'stu satyam
[O Goddess! I shall never pray to You for anything but the excellent service of Your lotus feet. I offer my constant obeisances unto the idea of becoming Your friend, but I truly relish the idea of becoming Your maidservant. (Vilap-kusumanjali text 16)]
"Oh, I offer my obeisances millions of times to the position of a sakhi of Srimati Radhika. But my only real desire, birth after birth, is to attain the service of Srimati Radhika in the mood of a manjari. I have no desire to become equal to Radhika, like the sakhis."
Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami also prays, "I will never leave the feet of Radhika to go to Krsna. Even if Krsna goes to Dvaraka and calls me there, I will not go. However, if out of some madness Radhika has somehow gone to Dvaraka, I will fly even faster than Garuda to serve Her there." (Svaniyama dasakam, verses 3 and 4)
nandann amuni lalita-guna-lalitani
padyani yah pathati nirmala-drstir astau
pritya vikarsati janam nija-vrnda-madhye
tam kirtida-pati-kulojjvala-kalpa-valli
[If a person with a cheerful and pure heart recites this astakam in praise of Lalita-devi, he will be affectionately brought into Srimati Radhika's own group of sakhis. Lalita-devi is superbly ornamented with beauty, grace and charm, and, along with Srimati Radhika, is the effulgent wish-fulfilling creeper (kalpa-valli) of Vrsabhanu Maharaja's family that winds around the kalpa-vrksa of Krsna. (Sri Lalitastakam, verse 9)]
In conclusion, Srimati Lalita-devi is the wish-fulfilling tree of the prema-seva (service in love) of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Whoever chants this Lalita-astakam will make Radha and Krsna happy. Moreover, Lalita-devi herself will be happy, and all our desires will be fulfilled.
Thank you all
Haribol All
Please accept my dandavat pranams
All Glories to Srila Narayana Maharaja Gurudeva
On behalf of Srila Narayana Maharaja`a
sanga here in South Africa,i would like
thank all that have written to meand pledging
your support for Srila Gurudeva`s historic
visit here to South Africa.I receive so many
emails from devotees and many first time readers
of this blog enquiring about Srila Gurudeva
and wanting to meet with Srila Gurudeva.
Many also want more articles on Srila Gurudeva`s
travels and more specially about his visit to South
Africa.So here goes, Srila Gurudeva Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Goswami Maharaja ,is scheduled to arrive
in South Africa on the 3rd January 2010 and the first
programme will be held in Pietermaritzburg "The city
of choice" for Srila Gurudeva`s preaching activities.
There will be a 2 day programme at the Truro Hall
on Bombay road.The programmes commence at 17h00
till 20h00.There will be free prasadam and also
there will be a civic reception for Srila Gurudeva
by some of the leaders in the community of Pietermaritzburg
and the surrounding area`s.All are welcome to come and take
Darshan of our Beloved Srila Gurudeva and hear his sweet
Hari Katha.
Then on the 7th and 8th January the festival will
move to Durban venue still has to be confirmed
i will post confirmation once it becomes available.
Then Srila Gurudeva travels to Johannesburg
and then leaves for Brazil for his Vyasa Puja.
Srila Gurudeva returns on the 24th January 2010
and then Johannesburg will have the great fortune
of Hearing from Srila Gurudeva.Those dates are
not confirmed i`ll keep you informed.
I`ll write more on Srila Gurudeva and keep
you all informed,feel free to ontact me for
any info.We have a wide selection of Srila
Gurudeva`s books including the latest printed
book Gopi Gita which will be available to the
public in 2 weeks time.
Please accept my dandavat pranams
All Glories to Srila Narayana Maharaja Gurudeva
On behalf of Srila Narayana Maharaja`a
sanga here in South Africa,i would like
thank all that have written to meand pledging
your support for Srila Gurudeva`s historic
visit here to South Africa.I receive so many
emails from devotees and many first time readers
of this blog enquiring about Srila Gurudeva
and wanting to meet with Srila Gurudeva.
Many also want more articles on Srila Gurudeva`s
travels and more specially about his visit to South
Africa.So here goes, Srila Gurudeva Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Goswami Maharaja ,is scheduled to arrive
in South Africa on the 3rd January 2010 and the first
programme will be held in Pietermaritzburg "The city
of choice" for Srila Gurudeva`s preaching activities.
There will be a 2 day programme at the Truro Hall
on Bombay road.The programmes commence at 17h00
till 20h00.There will be free prasadam and also
there will be a civic reception for Srila Gurudeva
by some of the leaders in the community of Pietermaritzburg
and the surrounding area`s.All are welcome to come and take
Darshan of our Beloved Srila Gurudeva and hear his sweet
Hari Katha.
Then on the 7th and 8th January the festival will
move to Durban venue still has to be confirmed
i will post confirmation once it becomes available.
Then Srila Gurudeva travels to Johannesburg
and then leaves for Brazil for his Vyasa Puja.
Srila Gurudeva returns on the 24th January 2010
and then Johannesburg will have the great fortune
of Hearing from Srila Gurudeva.Those dates are
not confirmed i`ll keep you informed.
I`ll write more on Srila Gurudeva and keep
you all informed,feel free to ontact me for
any info.We have a wide selection of Srila
Gurudeva`s books including the latest printed
book Gopi Gita which will be available to the
public in 2 weeks time.
No control over Freedom,A morning walk converstaion by Srila Narayana Maharaja with his discples and followers
No Control Over Freedom
Tuesday, 25 August 2009
Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja
A Morning Walk Conversation
Venice, Italy: June 9, 2009
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The topic of Sri Raya Ramananda’s conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is very high, very high. It is very difficult to even touch by one’s intelligence. The first part is not difficult to understand. It is the second part that is difficult – the part from which Raya Ramananda begins to discuss pure bhakti, then bhakti-rasa, then sakhya, (friendship) vatsalya, (parental love) madhurya (conjugal love) and sumadhura, (Srimati Radhika’s service mood), and then the process to obtain that most exalted love. It is so high; it is the most elevated chapter in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This manifestation of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu – rasaraja-mahabhava – this is not told even in Krsna-lila. In Krsna’s pastimes we read about Radha and Krsna, but not about this.
Any questions?
[Devotee:] Srila Gurudeva, you said that an aspiring devotee who is reading Bhagavad-gita and starts chanting the maha-mantra mostly chants nama-aparadha (offensive chanting), and sometimes nama-abhasa (chanting in the clearing stage). My question is this: When we go on nagara-sankirtana, so many people hear the maha-mantra. They don’t know any rules or regulations and they chant without faith and without offenses (asraddha nama-abhasa). You said when the aspiring devotee chanting is in the bodily conception of life, his chanting is nama-aparadha. But those new people, who are innocent, who don’t know anything, what kind of chanting and hearing are they doing?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Even nama-aparadha is not ordinary, it is high-class. Nama-aparadha is of so many of kinds and gradations, not only one kind; for example one of the varieties is vaishnava-aparadha. Actually, it is very good that one is chanting nama-aparadha. That will bring one to nama-abhasa, nama-abhasa will bring one to suddha-nama, (pure chanting of the holy name, wherein Krsna is revealed as non-different from His name) and that will bring one to a still better stage, prema-bhakti.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] In “Brahmana and Vaisnava”, a book by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, it is written that when the jiva falls down from the tatastha region, he first becomes Lord Brahma in one of the universes. He becomes one Lord Brahma.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] If hundreds of millions of jivas are coming from the tatastha realm to this world at the same time, will they all become Brahma?
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] They will become Brahma, but not in the same universe. They will be Brahmas in different universes. It is written in that book by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
[Madhava Maharaja:] I read the entire book a few months ago, and I never saw that statement there.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] I have the paper in my…
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] I doubt that it is there.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] My question is this: When we go walking, we see billions of blades of grass. How did those blades of grass come from a high position to that lowly position as grass?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] It is by their free will.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] What kind of karma makes one fall down from the human form all the way down there?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The analogy is given of a very small seed. If that seed is thrown on the edge of a sword’s blade, it will immediately fall on one side or the other. It will not remain on the blade’s edge.
Even without the fruit of karma, it will go here or there. Similarly, even without being subjected to enjoying or suffering the fruit of one’s past activities, because the jiva’s nature is to be tatastha (marginal), he must always choose this or that. He must go from the tatastha realm.
[Ashrama Maharaja:] But where is the free will? It seems like there is no free will. The jivas are going either here or there.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Krsna has given them independence, free will, whether they are in the realm of tatastha-sakti or once they become conditioned souls. That independence must always be with them. Even when they become liberated, that tatastha-bhava (the mood of the marginal living being, with the free will to choose) will be present within them.
[Ashrama Maharaja:] But when he hits that demarcation, or that sharp edge of the blade, going this way or that way…
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] In all situations the jiva has his natural, intrinsic marginal nature, and this is also true when he is in Goloka Vrndavana. However, there in Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya, always protects him; so he never falls to this world from there.
Krsna never interferes with his freedom. Wherever he wants to go, he can go.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] The human form is a platform on which one performs karma. How does one fall from human life all the way down to being a blade of grass?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Freedom has so many possibilities. Someone may think, “I will be grass.” You cannot control his freedom. One may think, “I will be a mountain,” or “I will be river,” or “I will be human,” or “I will be a tiger.” There is no control over his freedom.
[Ramanatha dasa:] Gurudeva, when we’re out distributing books or preaching, sometimes we meet people who say, “Yes, we know about reincarnation. I want to be a dog in my next life,” or “I want to be a cat,” or “I want to be a tiger.”
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] They want that? Well, what can we do?
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] Who would want to be a blade of grass?
[Madhava Maharaja and others:] Uddhava.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Why would he not want to be a blade of grass? In that way Krsna will walk by him and the gopis will walk by him. In this way he would be bathed by the dust of their lotus feet.
[Devotee:] One little question, Gurudeva. I heard that one can go to Vaikuntha by chanting namabhasa. Is this true?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] At first Ajamila chanted nama-abhasa, and by that chanting a platform was created to ready for him for going to Vaikuntha. Then his gurus, the four Visnu-dutas, taught him about suddha-nama. Later on, by his chanting of suddha-nama, he actually went to Vaikuntha.
[Srauti Maharaja:] At the time of the jiva’s choosing which way to turn, he may look left and right. What does he see exactly?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] He sees in this world that all are enjoying sense gratification – like some of our brahmacaris sometimes think, “Oh, sense gratification is very, very good. It is greater than Krsna’s service. There is nothing of value in Krsna’s service.”
[Sajjana Maharaja:] Sometimes it is said that the jiva falls to this world by chance, and sometimes it is said that the jivas’ fall is his own fault. Which is correct?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Try to understand that both are the same.
[Devotee:] Gurudeva, does the jiva wear clothing?”
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Krsna is ‘smaller than the smallest,’ [*See Endnote 1] but still He has form. In the same way, although, by one’s transcendental nature one is infinitesimal [1/10,000 the tip of a hair particle] but he has a very good form. He can be like a mountain, or he can be in a blade of grass, smaller than an ant.
And certainly he wears clothing. Is Krsna naked?
[Devotee:] No.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Is Radha naked?
[Devotee:] No.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] They wear clothing, certainly; and in the same way, the jiva wears clothing.
[*ENDNOTE 1: He is smaller than the smallest. The living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair, but the Lord is so inconceivably small that He enters into the heart of this particle. Therefore He is called smaller than the smallest. As the Supreme, He can enter into the atom and into the heart of the smallest and control him as the Supersoul. Although so small, He is still all-pervading and is maintaining everything. By Him all these planetary systems are sustained. We often wonder how these big planets are floating in the air. It is stated here that the Supreme Lord, by His inconceivable energy, is sustaining all these big planets and systems of galaxies. The word acintya ("inconceivable") is very significant in this connection. God's energy is beyond our conception, beyond our thinking jurisdiction, and is therefore called inconceivable (acintya). Who can argue this point? He pervades this material world and yet is beyond it. We cannot comprehend even this material world, which is insignificant compared to the spiritual world—so how can we comprehend what is beyond? (Bhagavad-gita, 8.9, Purport)]
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Last Updated on Tuesday, 25 August 2009
Tuesday, 25 August 2009
Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja
A Morning Walk Conversation
Venice, Italy: June 9, 2009
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The topic of Sri Raya Ramananda’s conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is very high, very high. It is very difficult to even touch by one’s intelligence. The first part is not difficult to understand. It is the second part that is difficult – the part from which Raya Ramananda begins to discuss pure bhakti, then bhakti-rasa, then sakhya, (friendship) vatsalya, (parental love) madhurya (conjugal love) and sumadhura, (Srimati Radhika’s service mood), and then the process to obtain that most exalted love. It is so high; it is the most elevated chapter in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This manifestation of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu – rasaraja-mahabhava – this is not told even in Krsna-lila. In Krsna’s pastimes we read about Radha and Krsna, but not about this.
Any questions?
[Devotee:] Srila Gurudeva, you said that an aspiring devotee who is reading Bhagavad-gita and starts chanting the maha-mantra mostly chants nama-aparadha (offensive chanting), and sometimes nama-abhasa (chanting in the clearing stage). My question is this: When we go on nagara-sankirtana, so many people hear the maha-mantra. They don’t know any rules or regulations and they chant without faith and without offenses (asraddha nama-abhasa). You said when the aspiring devotee chanting is in the bodily conception of life, his chanting is nama-aparadha. But those new people, who are innocent, who don’t know anything, what kind of chanting and hearing are they doing?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Even nama-aparadha is not ordinary, it is high-class. Nama-aparadha is of so many of kinds and gradations, not only one kind; for example one of the varieties is vaishnava-aparadha. Actually, it is very good that one is chanting nama-aparadha. That will bring one to nama-abhasa, nama-abhasa will bring one to suddha-nama, (pure chanting of the holy name, wherein Krsna is revealed as non-different from His name) and that will bring one to a still better stage, prema-bhakti.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] In “Brahmana and Vaisnava”, a book by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, it is written that when the jiva falls down from the tatastha region, he first becomes Lord Brahma in one of the universes. He becomes one Lord Brahma.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] If hundreds of millions of jivas are coming from the tatastha realm to this world at the same time, will they all become Brahma?
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] They will become Brahma, but not in the same universe. They will be Brahmas in different universes. It is written in that book by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
[Madhava Maharaja:] I read the entire book a few months ago, and I never saw that statement there.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] I have the paper in my…
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] I doubt that it is there.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] My question is this: When we go walking, we see billions of blades of grass. How did those blades of grass come from a high position to that lowly position as grass?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] It is by their free will.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] What kind of karma makes one fall down from the human form all the way down there?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] The analogy is given of a very small seed. If that seed is thrown on the edge of a sword’s blade, it will immediately fall on one side or the other. It will not remain on the blade’s edge.
Even without the fruit of karma, it will go here or there. Similarly, even without being subjected to enjoying or suffering the fruit of one’s past activities, because the jiva’s nature is to be tatastha (marginal), he must always choose this or that. He must go from the tatastha realm.
[Ashrama Maharaja:] But where is the free will? It seems like there is no free will. The jivas are going either here or there.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Krsna has given them independence, free will, whether they are in the realm of tatastha-sakti or once they become conditioned souls. That independence must always be with them. Even when they become liberated, that tatastha-bhava (the mood of the marginal living being, with the free will to choose) will be present within them.
[Ashrama Maharaja:] But when he hits that demarcation, or that sharp edge of the blade, going this way or that way…
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] In all situations the jiva has his natural, intrinsic marginal nature, and this is also true when he is in Goloka Vrndavana. However, there in Goloka Vrndavana, Yogamaya, always protects him; so he never falls to this world from there.
Krsna never interferes with his freedom. Wherever he wants to go, he can go.
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] The human form is a platform on which one performs karma. How does one fall from human life all the way down to being a blade of grass?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Freedom has so many possibilities. Someone may think, “I will be grass.” You cannot control his freedom. One may think, “I will be a mountain,” or “I will be river,” or “I will be human,” or “I will be a tiger.” There is no control over his freedom.
[Ramanatha dasa:] Gurudeva, when we’re out distributing books or preaching, sometimes we meet people who say, “Yes, we know about reincarnation. I want to be a dog in my next life,” or “I want to be a cat,” or “I want to be a tiger.”
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] They want that? Well, what can we do?
[Suddhadvaiti Maharaja:] Who would want to be a blade of grass?
[Madhava Maharaja and others:] Uddhava.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Why would he not want to be a blade of grass? In that way Krsna will walk by him and the gopis will walk by him. In this way he would be bathed by the dust of their lotus feet.
[Devotee:] One little question, Gurudeva. I heard that one can go to Vaikuntha by chanting namabhasa. Is this true?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] At first Ajamila chanted nama-abhasa, and by that chanting a platform was created to ready for him for going to Vaikuntha. Then his gurus, the four Visnu-dutas, taught him about suddha-nama. Later on, by his chanting of suddha-nama, he actually went to Vaikuntha.
[Srauti Maharaja:] At the time of the jiva’s choosing which way to turn, he may look left and right. What does he see exactly?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] He sees in this world that all are enjoying sense gratification – like some of our brahmacaris sometimes think, “Oh, sense gratification is very, very good. It is greater than Krsna’s service. There is nothing of value in Krsna’s service.”
[Sajjana Maharaja:] Sometimes it is said that the jiva falls to this world by chance, and sometimes it is said that the jivas’ fall is his own fault. Which is correct?
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Try to understand that both are the same.
[Devotee:] Gurudeva, does the jiva wear clothing?”
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Krsna is ‘smaller than the smallest,’ [*See Endnote 1] but still He has form. In the same way, although, by one’s transcendental nature one is infinitesimal [1/10,000 the tip of a hair particle] but he has a very good form. He can be like a mountain, or he can be in a blade of grass, smaller than an ant.
And certainly he wears clothing. Is Krsna naked?
[Devotee:] No.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Is Radha naked?
[Devotee:] No.
[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] They wear clothing, certainly; and in the same way, the jiva wears clothing.
[*ENDNOTE 1: He is smaller than the smallest. The living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair, but the Lord is so inconceivably small that He enters into the heart of this particle. Therefore He is called smaller than the smallest. As the Supreme, He can enter into the atom and into the heart of the smallest and control him as the Supersoul. Although so small, He is still all-pervading and is maintaining everything. By Him all these planetary systems are sustained. We often wonder how these big planets are floating in the air. It is stated here that the Supreme Lord, by His inconceivable energy, is sustaining all these big planets and systems of galaxies. The word acintya ("inconceivable") is very significant in this connection. God's energy is beyond our conception, beyond our thinking jurisdiction, and is therefore called inconceivable (acintya). Who can argue this point? He pervades this material world and yet is beyond it. We cannot comprehend even this material world, which is insignificant compared to the spiritual world—so how can we comprehend what is beyond? (Bhagavad-gita, 8.9, Purport)]
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Last Updated on Tuesday, 25 August 2009
Friday, August 21, 2009
An article by Sripad Bhagavat Maharaja
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Uncle Bhagavat Maharaja
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Celebrating Unity and Diversity in Gaudiya Vaishnavism
These are my thoughts on my Birthday
I started my first world preaching tour in November of 2008 in Alachua Florida. It has been a great tour. I have been to Florida, Texas, California, Hong Kong, Malaysia for Srila Narayan Maharaja’s Vyasa Puja, India for Gour Purnima, Bangalore, Vrndavana, Italy, England, France, Italy again for Srila Narayan Maharaja’s European festival, and back to Hong Kong and I am now in Mumbai. Some of the highlights for me on this tour are that I have been able to participate in festivals, kirtans, and classes, with various different Gaudiya Vaishnava associations including ISKCON.
In Malaysia the devotees from Srila Narayan Maharajas sangha in Johur Baru made a Sobha Yatra festival where they carried their deities of Lord Jagannatha, Lord Baladeva and Lady Subhadra on one cart. They invited the ISKCON center to come with their full size Srila Prabhupada Murti for the other cart with a picture of Srila Narayan Maharaja. We went all around the neighborhood with the carts and a Chinese Dragon team because it was close to or on the day of the Chinese New year. It was so colorful and exciting and the people from all cultures in Malaysia came out on to the streets and greeted us, gave gifts, performed aratik, and in general had a wonderful time in spite of the rain. Both parties were completely happy and we celebrated our unity and diversity as two branches of the same Gaudiya Vaishnava family.
In Mayapura I got the opportunity to glorify my dear God Brother Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja on His Disappearance day in the Gour Govinda Ashram that is in Sridham Mayapura. I sang Guru puja and talked for over and hour on the pastimes and glories of the Great Saint that I was so fortunately allowed to live with in an intimate way for over 3 years in India.
In Vrndavana I sang the morning Guru Puja for Srila Prabhupada and gave a Bhagavad Gita Class that night. I honored my Srila Prabhupada alone in His temple Guru Puja and glorified the purports of His Bhagavad Gita As It Is that evening in the class.
In London at the Bhaktivedanta Manor my old friend Ananta Shakti Prabhu arranged a plate of Mahaprasad from the noon aratik I attended and I caught up with old friends like Krpa Moya Prabhu whom I shared lunch with, Tattvavit Prabhu and others. In Soho Street I had a nice Lunch at the Govinda’s Restaurant and went upstairs where they asked me to lead the singing for the noon aratik. I led a good old fashioned Hare Krishna Kirtan changing the tune only twice in half an hour. All were happy especially me.
In Rome I stayed at Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharajas Temple with his disciples. Srila Prabhupada told myself and Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja in 1977 to preach together with His Godbrother Srila Puri Maharaja and we did. I went to Berhampur and did programs with him and he came to Bhubaneshwara and did programs with us. He was a great friend of Srila Prabhupada’s and I was honored to stay in his temple with his disciples. I was asked to lead the morning mangal aratik and the Gurupuja and give class. This temple sang different songs then we sing in Srila Narayana Mahrajas sanga or that are sung in ISKCON for Mangal Aratik. I sang their songs and they allowed me to glorify Srila Narayana Maharaja there during the Guru Puja which was performed in front of Srila Prabhupada’s Murti and Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja’s picture both on their own vyasasanas. They added a picture of Srila Narayana Maharaja and so after I sang Sri Guru Carana Padma I sang the pranam mantras and glories of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Vai Bhava Puri Maharaja, and Srila Narayana Maharaja as well.
In Hong Kong one independently wealthy lady sponsored a Rathayatra parade and festival in a theater on Rathayatra day. She invited the Ritviks, ISKCON and Srila Narayan Maharaja’s Sanga. Narasimha Maharaja from ISKCON led the kirtana for part of the procession and then I led the kirtana after that at the request of Chandra Shekara Prabhu the GBC for ISKOCN in Hong Kong. At the Theater Narasimha Maharaja and me shared lunch prepared by one of Srila Narayan Maharaja’s disciples and caught up on old times from London and Calcutta. During the program the ISKCON and Ritvik devotees spoke and then the GBC for ISKCON, Chandra Shekar Prabhu, spoke beautifully about the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the inner meanings of the Rathayatra pastimes in very clear and simple to digest way for the entire audience. Nanda Prabhu who is the local Temple president here for Srila Narayan Maharja’s sanga spoke in Chinese at the end and then gave the microphone to me. I spoke about how Srila Prabhupada was responsible for spreading the glories of Rathayatra all over the world and I spoke of the glories of Sriman Jayananda Prabhu who assisted Srila Prabhupada in this pastime. Then I was asked to lead the concluding Kiratan which everyone joined in together.
Presently in Mumbai I am staying at the ISKCON JUHU Temple by the grace of my old God Brother Bhima Prabhu who is the zonal secretary. This place is especially dear to me because I had most of my association with Srila Prabhupada here in this temple as it was being developed. I have been giving classes leading kirtans and having a wonderful time. The devotees here all have a very enthusiastic service attitude which is both refreshing and enlivening.
Whichever temple I go to I try to honor the particular way in which the founder acharya of that branch of our Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya has established the worship. I do not try to impose anything from another branch of the Sampradaya because each branch has their own flavor and so I honor that flavor and savor the rasa or taste that it provides me. After all Variety is the spice of life. To me this is the beauty of our Sampradaya it has so many variations on a theme and we can celebrate the unity of our Gaudiya Vaishnava Family while honoring the diversity which it manifests. We can read in the Caitanya Caritamrta how the devotees from Bengal were different from the devotees in Orissa and both were glorified and glorious!
When I was at Srila Bhakti vai Bhava Puri Maharajas Temple I was asked by his disciples what they should do now after the departure of their Guru Maharaja. I advised them to take shelter of and siksha from the Sannyasis that their Guru Maharaja had appointed to be his successors. I said you can take siksha from any sadhu but you should continue in the mood of your Guru Maharaja and take shelter of the successors he specifically appointed. A devotee from an ISKCON Temple asked about a situation where there were many devotees in the Temple who could not decided who to take initiation from. He asked me about whether they should look outside ISKCON to take initiation. I told him that there were many qualified persons in ISKCON who can give Hari Nam and Diksha. I named a few and told them to take diksha and siksha from them and that they could also take siksha from any other sadhu they were attracted to. Siksha is just as powerful as diksha and can be very valuable for the advancement of our spiritual life. Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakura took diksha from Bipin Bihari Goswami but He accepted siksha from Jagannatha Das Babaji who he revered equally to his diksha guru.
I believe that Srila Narayan Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Saraswati Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, and Srila Narottama Das Thakura all share this sentiment celebrating the unity and diversity of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Unfortunately not all of their followers do and as a result there is some unnecessary friction when there need be none at all. This is not the first time that there has been so many groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas separated from each other over misunderstandings and a failure to celebrate their unity in their diversity. During the time of Srila Narottam Das Thakura there were several branches arguing over what was the real siddhanta and legacy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some were rejecting Lord Nityananda but accepting Lord Caitanya. Others were saying that Narahari was part of the Pancha Tattva not Srivas Thakura. Other misconceptions about siddhanta were also manifesting. The result was disputes, disagreements, and disunity. Srila Narottam Das Thakura wanted to resolve this and unify the Gaudiya Vaishnavas so that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission could be spread unrestrictedly and unlimitedly. He called for a meeting of all the Vaishnavas in Kheturi to discuss everything and do kirtan together. At the commencement of the festival Srila Narottam Das Thakura led a beautiful Hari Nama Sankirtana which was performed in great ecstasy by him and all of the devotees. When he did this Hari Nama Sankirtana although the members of the Pancha Tattava had already departed this world they began to manifest themselves in front of all the Vaishnavas by dancing and chanting in ecstasy. You can imagine what Jhanavi Mata and Birbhadra, the wife and son of Lord Nityananda felt like when they saw him. When Acyutananda saw his father Advaita Acarya and others saw their siksha and diksha Gurus in the different members of the Pancha Tattva. The festival was a complete success as it united all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas in purpose and siddhanta and established the Caitanya Caritamrta and its siddhanta as the most authorized biography of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Unfortunately things gradually dissolved and it fell upon the shoulders of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura to both resurrect and again establish the unified siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had firm faith that the prediction of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would come to fruition.
Prithvi-parjanta jata ache desa-grama
sarvatra sancara hoibek mora nama.
“My name will be preached in all the countries
and towns that exist throughout the world”
To accomplish this Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura engaged himself tirelessly praying, writing, preaching, and organizing Hari Nam Sankirtan and other preaching activities.
One of his most important efforts in this regard was finding the original holy birthplace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would make this a rallying point for both the various Gaudiya Vaishnava’s of his day and for the future Sankirtan missions from all over the world. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura remembered that Narottam Das Thakura had organized the Kheturi festival 450 years ago to unify all the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. With this idea in mind Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura brought together all the followers of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at the Lords birthplace on Gaura Purnima March 21, 1895. On that day He installed the deities of Lord Sri Caitanya and his consort Srimati Vishnupriya with a ceremony and sankirtan festival at the site of the newly constructed temple. There were thousands of devotees of Lord Caitanya at this festival from all the various Gaudiya Vaisnava groups and many of the devotees remarked that such a gathering had not taken place in 450 years since Srila Narottam Das Thakur’s famous Kheturi festival. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had now brought them all together to remind them that their real purpose was to co-operatively preach the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and spread the Hari Nam Sankirtan movement of the Lord all over the world.
The next year 1896 Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would begin planting the seeds of preaching in the western world by responding to the entreaties of the famous poet Ralph Waldo Emerson who had opined that he could not read the Thakur’s Sri Krishna Samhita in Sanskrit. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would send the newly completed Sri Gauranga-lila-smarana-stotram. This book contained 104 Sanskrit verses but was prefaced by an introduction written in the English language called Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts. This introduction was a summary of the Sanskrit verses explaining in concise and nectarine terms the life and teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as found in the Sri Caitanya-Bhagavata and Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. It was sent to Universities and intellectuals in different parts of the world with the conviction that this English introduction was something that Westerners could read and benefit from. One of the institutions that received the book was McGill University in Montreal, Canada.
Having now begun the preaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission in the western world Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura continued praying for the day when this preaching would make such an impact that it would develop into a world wide movement that would eventually embrace and liberate everyone in the world. These prayers of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura were actually predictions of his in which he had boldly unfolded the following vision of the future in an article published in Sajjana-Tosani more than ten years earlier in 1885. It appears as follows:
“Lord Caitanya did not advent Himself to liberate only a few men of India. Rather, His main objective was to emancipate all living entities of all countries throughout the entire universe and preach the Eternal Religion. Lord Caitanya says in the Caitanya-Bhagavata: “In every town, country, and village, My name will be sung”. There is no doubt that this unquestionable order will come to pass… Very soon the unparalleled path of Harinama-sankirtan will be propagated all over the world. Already we are seeing the symptoms…(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura goes on to talk about the Salvation Army band marching through the streets of the western world as the first strains of sankirtan in the west) the article continues: Oh for that day when the fortunate English, French, Russian, German, and American people will take up banners, mrdangas, and kartalas and raise kirtana through their streets and towns. When will that day come? Oh for the day when the fair skinned men from their side will raise up the chanting of ‘jaya sacinandana, jaya sacinandana, kijaya’ and join with the Bengali devotees. When will that day be?”
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura continued with his prediction “On such a day they will say, “Our dear Brothers, we have taken shelter of the ocean of Lord Caitanya’s Love; kindly embrace us”. Some will say that this has already happened but if you read the rest of the prediction you will see that it may have happened on the surface but it has not taken place deep within our hearts and souls. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura continues “that day will witness the holy transcendental ecstasy of the Vaisnava dharma to be the only dharma, and all sects and religions will flow like rivers into the ocean of Vaisnava dharma. Oh when will that day come?” In another place he repeats the same prediction a little differently: “Oh when will that day come, when pure and transcendental Vaisnava prema will be the only religion of all souls and all tiny sectarian religions will meet in the unlimited and universal religion of Vaishnavism as rivers merge into the great ocean? O when will that day come?
Another prediction by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura on the future unity of all of the world’s religions is given in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts, pages 68-69 as follows:
“The dharma preached by Caitanya Mahaprabhu is universal and not exclusive … The principle of kirtan as the future church of the world invites all classes of men, without distinction of caste or clan, to the highest cultivation of the spirit. This church, it appears, will spread worldwide and replace all sectarian churches, which exclude outsiders from the precincts of the mosque, church, or temple.”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura once wrote the following statement in an article titled “THAKURA BHAKTIVINODA” which announces with absolute conviction the unquestioned manifestation of the final prophesy just mentioned, while admonishing those who would not participate in it’s fulfillment.
“Thakura Bhaktivinoda has predicted the consummation of religious unity of the world by the appearance of the only universal church which bears the eternal designation of the Brahma Sampradaya. He has given mankind the blessed assurance that all Theistic churches will shortly merge in the one eternal spiritual community by the grace of the Supreme Lord Shree Krishna Chaitanya. The spiritual community is not circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off Divine Event through the Long Ages. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has made the conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of enlightenment. The key stone of the Arch has been laid which will afford the needed shelter to all awakened animation under its ample encircling arms. Those who would thoughtlessly allow their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue to stand in the way of this long hoped for consummation, would have to thank only themselves for not being incorporated in the spiritual society of all pure souls.”
On the last day of His manifest pastimes on this planet Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura said many things. The following statement was one of them:
“The stream which flows from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura will never be dammed up. Remember this and vow to double your efforts to fulfill Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's desires.”
When my Srila Prabhupada was asked about Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s statement that “He had not finished His work” Srila Prabhupada replied: “Then let us finish it, He is Vaishnava, He is all powerful, He could have done, but He left it for us to finish, so we should finish it.”
Unfortunately there are many devotees from the different sangas who do not share this vision of unity and diversity. They insist that their particular Guru or institution is the only authorized avenue for spiritual advancement. Due to their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue and insecurities and weaknesses in their own practice of Bhakti they can only feel good about themselves when they criticize others as being less fortunate because they do not have the association of their particular Gurudeva or Institution.
This attitude does not finish the work of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura it obstructs it. We the disciples of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada have a responsibility to fulfill the order of our spiritual master and finish the work that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura started. To bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy that all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas will embrace in Vaishnava Prema creating a Vaishnava Dharma that is so attractive it will cause all of the other religions of the world to flow into it like the rivers into the ocean. Our failure to do so will place us in the category of those who would thoughtlessly let heir hollow pride get in the way of the consummation of the society for all pure souls and hence we will forfeit having any place in it.
Some may say that we need another Srila Narottam Das Thakura or Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura to make this manifest. However I feel that we already have the order from Srila Prabhupada if we work together to fulfill the order it will happen. We the disciples of Srila Prabhupada have been empowered by HIM to make this manifest by HIS order. Just like everything else that Srila Prabhupada accomplished He did so by empowering his disciples. Srila Prabhupada Himself was empowered to fulfill the order of his Guru Maharaja long after His Guru Maharaja departed form this manifest plane. Now it is up to us to build a consensus amongst all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas to fulfill this prophesy. And what will happen if we do not do it?
Once my Srila Prabhupada wrote a letter saying that “Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted that in every town and village my name will be heard” “Now” my Srila Prabhupada said: “I have started this world wide mission and some of you are helping me so you will also get some credit”, “however even if all of you were to leave me tomorrow still it would happen only some one else would get the credit.” “God said it would happen therefore it must happen.”
So how much more definitely are the predictions of the pure devotee of the Lord fulfilled by the Lord? Based on Tattva Siddhanta I believe with absolute certainty that Srila Bhaktivinoda’s predictions must be fulfilled. However who will get the credit? Srila Prabhupada has made all of the arrangements. He has placed His disciples everywhere. They are serving in or connected to just about every Gaudiya Sanga. Srila Prabhupada’s books are influencing everyone. The present Acharya’s of two different Gaudiya Matha’s started with and still study Srila Prabhupada’s books on a regular basis. Acharya’s and vaishnavas in all of the other Gaudiya Matha’s read Srila Prabhupada’s books. He has given us the order and he has made all of the arrangements. He has spread his influence everywhere and we need only take up the order with the same conviction and determination and patience and humility and love that He himself displayed as he fulfilled the order of His Guru Maharaja.
Can we become humble enough to celebrate the unity and diversity of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and see all the sangas as different limbs of Lord Caitanya’s body and embrace each other in Vaishnava Prema and by doing so create the Vaishnava dharma that will be so attractive to the whole world that all will enter into it? Will we go down in history as the generation that passed up the greatest golden opportunity to fulfill this order of Srila Prabhupada, to fulfill these prophesies of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura? Or will future generations mark this point in time as the beginning of a new era in Gaudiya Vaishnava history which was inspired by the tireless, humble, patient, loving, efforts of the disciples of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to fulfill His order and these prophesies of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura? Will the future generations remember us as the ones who failed to fulfill the order of Srila Prabhupada and kept everyone apart or the ones who built the consensus that brought everyone together to fulfill the prophecy of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura?
I ask all of you who are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples and followers, how do YOU want to be remembered in the annals of Gaudiya Vaishnava History? This prophecy will be fulfilled! Will we, as Srila Prabhupada’s disciples let this opportunity pass to another generation to fulfill? Or will we follow in the footsteps of our Guru Maharaja and fulfill the order?
HISTORY IS CALLING! ARE WE LISTENING?
Posted by Uncle Bhagavat Maharaja at 9:12 AM
Labels: bhakti bhakti bhakti Caitanya chaitanya krishna krsna radha sankirtan Srila Gurudeva Srila Narayan Maharaja Srila Prabhupada yoga hari Nama
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Thursday, August 20, 2009
Celebrating Unity and Diversity in Gaudiya Vaishnavism
These are my thoughts on my Birthday
I started my first world preaching tour in November of 2008 in Alachua Florida. It has been a great tour. I have been to Florida, Texas, California, Hong Kong, Malaysia for Srila Narayan Maharaja’s Vyasa Puja, India for Gour Purnima, Bangalore, Vrndavana, Italy, England, France, Italy again for Srila Narayan Maharaja’s European festival, and back to Hong Kong and I am now in Mumbai. Some of the highlights for me on this tour are that I have been able to participate in festivals, kirtans, and classes, with various different Gaudiya Vaishnava associations including ISKCON.
In Malaysia the devotees from Srila Narayan Maharajas sangha in Johur Baru made a Sobha Yatra festival where they carried their deities of Lord Jagannatha, Lord Baladeva and Lady Subhadra on one cart. They invited the ISKCON center to come with their full size Srila Prabhupada Murti for the other cart with a picture of Srila Narayan Maharaja. We went all around the neighborhood with the carts and a Chinese Dragon team because it was close to or on the day of the Chinese New year. It was so colorful and exciting and the people from all cultures in Malaysia came out on to the streets and greeted us, gave gifts, performed aratik, and in general had a wonderful time in spite of the rain. Both parties were completely happy and we celebrated our unity and diversity as two branches of the same Gaudiya Vaishnava family.
In Mayapura I got the opportunity to glorify my dear God Brother Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja on His Disappearance day in the Gour Govinda Ashram that is in Sridham Mayapura. I sang Guru puja and talked for over and hour on the pastimes and glories of the Great Saint that I was so fortunately allowed to live with in an intimate way for over 3 years in India.
In Vrndavana I sang the morning Guru Puja for Srila Prabhupada and gave a Bhagavad Gita Class that night. I honored my Srila Prabhupada alone in His temple Guru Puja and glorified the purports of His Bhagavad Gita As It Is that evening in the class.
In London at the Bhaktivedanta Manor my old friend Ananta Shakti Prabhu arranged a plate of Mahaprasad from the noon aratik I attended and I caught up with old friends like Krpa Moya Prabhu whom I shared lunch with, Tattvavit Prabhu and others. In Soho Street I had a nice Lunch at the Govinda’s Restaurant and went upstairs where they asked me to lead the singing for the noon aratik. I led a good old fashioned Hare Krishna Kirtan changing the tune only twice in half an hour. All were happy especially me.
In Rome I stayed at Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharajas Temple with his disciples. Srila Prabhupada told myself and Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja in 1977 to preach together with His Godbrother Srila Puri Maharaja and we did. I went to Berhampur and did programs with him and he came to Bhubaneshwara and did programs with us. He was a great friend of Srila Prabhupada’s and I was honored to stay in his temple with his disciples. I was asked to lead the morning mangal aratik and the Gurupuja and give class. This temple sang different songs then we sing in Srila Narayana Mahrajas sanga or that are sung in ISKCON for Mangal Aratik. I sang their songs and they allowed me to glorify Srila Narayana Maharaja there during the Guru Puja which was performed in front of Srila Prabhupada’s Murti and Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja’s picture both on their own vyasasanas. They added a picture of Srila Narayana Maharaja and so after I sang Sri Guru Carana Padma I sang the pranam mantras and glories of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Vai Bhava Puri Maharaja, and Srila Narayana Maharaja as well.
In Hong Kong one independently wealthy lady sponsored a Rathayatra parade and festival in a theater on Rathayatra day. She invited the Ritviks, ISKCON and Srila Narayan Maharaja’s Sanga. Narasimha Maharaja from ISKCON led the kirtana for part of the procession and then I led the kirtana after that at the request of Chandra Shekara Prabhu the GBC for ISKOCN in Hong Kong. At the Theater Narasimha Maharaja and me shared lunch prepared by one of Srila Narayan Maharaja’s disciples and caught up on old times from London and Calcutta. During the program the ISKCON and Ritvik devotees spoke and then the GBC for ISKCON, Chandra Shekar Prabhu, spoke beautifully about the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the inner meanings of the Rathayatra pastimes in very clear and simple to digest way for the entire audience. Nanda Prabhu who is the local Temple president here for Srila Narayan Maharja’s sanga spoke in Chinese at the end and then gave the microphone to me. I spoke about how Srila Prabhupada was responsible for spreading the glories of Rathayatra all over the world and I spoke of the glories of Sriman Jayananda Prabhu who assisted Srila Prabhupada in this pastime. Then I was asked to lead the concluding Kiratan which everyone joined in together.
Presently in Mumbai I am staying at the ISKCON JUHU Temple by the grace of my old God Brother Bhima Prabhu who is the zonal secretary. This place is especially dear to me because I had most of my association with Srila Prabhupada here in this temple as it was being developed. I have been giving classes leading kirtans and having a wonderful time. The devotees here all have a very enthusiastic service attitude which is both refreshing and enlivening.
Whichever temple I go to I try to honor the particular way in which the founder acharya of that branch of our Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya has established the worship. I do not try to impose anything from another branch of the Sampradaya because each branch has their own flavor and so I honor that flavor and savor the rasa or taste that it provides me. After all Variety is the spice of life. To me this is the beauty of our Sampradaya it has so many variations on a theme and we can celebrate the unity of our Gaudiya Vaishnava Family while honoring the diversity which it manifests. We can read in the Caitanya Caritamrta how the devotees from Bengal were different from the devotees in Orissa and both were glorified and glorious!
When I was at Srila Bhakti vai Bhava Puri Maharajas Temple I was asked by his disciples what they should do now after the departure of their Guru Maharaja. I advised them to take shelter of and siksha from the Sannyasis that their Guru Maharaja had appointed to be his successors. I said you can take siksha from any sadhu but you should continue in the mood of your Guru Maharaja and take shelter of the successors he specifically appointed. A devotee from an ISKCON Temple asked about a situation where there were many devotees in the Temple who could not decided who to take initiation from. He asked me about whether they should look outside ISKCON to take initiation. I told him that there were many qualified persons in ISKCON who can give Hari Nam and Diksha. I named a few and told them to take diksha and siksha from them and that they could also take siksha from any other sadhu they were attracted to. Siksha is just as powerful as diksha and can be very valuable for the advancement of our spiritual life. Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakura took diksha from Bipin Bihari Goswami but He accepted siksha from Jagannatha Das Babaji who he revered equally to his diksha guru.
I believe that Srila Narayan Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Saraswati Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, and Srila Narottama Das Thakura all share this sentiment celebrating the unity and diversity of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Unfortunately not all of their followers do and as a result there is some unnecessary friction when there need be none at all. This is not the first time that there has been so many groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas separated from each other over misunderstandings and a failure to celebrate their unity in their diversity. During the time of Srila Narottam Das Thakura there were several branches arguing over what was the real siddhanta and legacy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Some were rejecting Lord Nityananda but accepting Lord Caitanya. Others were saying that Narahari was part of the Pancha Tattva not Srivas Thakura. Other misconceptions about siddhanta were also manifesting. The result was disputes, disagreements, and disunity. Srila Narottam Das Thakura wanted to resolve this and unify the Gaudiya Vaishnavas so that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission could be spread unrestrictedly and unlimitedly. He called for a meeting of all the Vaishnavas in Kheturi to discuss everything and do kirtan together. At the commencement of the festival Srila Narottam Das Thakura led a beautiful Hari Nama Sankirtana which was performed in great ecstasy by him and all of the devotees. When he did this Hari Nama Sankirtana although the members of the Pancha Tattava had already departed this world they began to manifest themselves in front of all the Vaishnavas by dancing and chanting in ecstasy. You can imagine what Jhanavi Mata and Birbhadra, the wife and son of Lord Nityananda felt like when they saw him. When Acyutananda saw his father Advaita Acarya and others saw their siksha and diksha Gurus in the different members of the Pancha Tattva. The festival was a complete success as it united all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas in purpose and siddhanta and established the Caitanya Caritamrta and its siddhanta as the most authorized biography of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Unfortunately things gradually dissolved and it fell upon the shoulders of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura to both resurrect and again establish the unified siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had firm faith that the prediction of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu would come to fruition.
Prithvi-parjanta jata ache desa-grama
sarvatra sancara hoibek mora nama.
“My name will be preached in all the countries
and towns that exist throughout the world”
To accomplish this Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura engaged himself tirelessly praying, writing, preaching, and organizing Hari Nam Sankirtan and other preaching activities.
One of his most important efforts in this regard was finding the original holy birthplace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would make this a rallying point for both the various Gaudiya Vaishnava’s of his day and for the future Sankirtan missions from all over the world. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura remembered that Narottam Das Thakura had organized the Kheturi festival 450 years ago to unify all the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. With this idea in mind Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura brought together all the followers of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at the Lords birthplace on Gaura Purnima March 21, 1895. On that day He installed the deities of Lord Sri Caitanya and his consort Srimati Vishnupriya with a ceremony and sankirtan festival at the site of the newly constructed temple. There were thousands of devotees of Lord Caitanya at this festival from all the various Gaudiya Vaisnava groups and many of the devotees remarked that such a gathering had not taken place in 450 years since Srila Narottam Das Thakur’s famous Kheturi festival. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura had now brought them all together to remind them that their real purpose was to co-operatively preach the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and spread the Hari Nam Sankirtan movement of the Lord all over the world.
The next year 1896 Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would begin planting the seeds of preaching in the western world by responding to the entreaties of the famous poet Ralph Waldo Emerson who had opined that he could not read the Thakur’s Sri Krishna Samhita in Sanskrit. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would send the newly completed Sri Gauranga-lila-smarana-stotram. This book contained 104 Sanskrit verses but was prefaced by an introduction written in the English language called Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts. This introduction was a summary of the Sanskrit verses explaining in concise and nectarine terms the life and teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as found in the Sri Caitanya-Bhagavata and Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. It was sent to Universities and intellectuals in different parts of the world with the conviction that this English introduction was something that Westerners could read and benefit from. One of the institutions that received the book was McGill University in Montreal, Canada.
Having now begun the preaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission in the western world Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura continued praying for the day when this preaching would make such an impact that it would develop into a world wide movement that would eventually embrace and liberate everyone in the world. These prayers of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura were actually predictions of his in which he had boldly unfolded the following vision of the future in an article published in Sajjana-Tosani more than ten years earlier in 1885. It appears as follows:
“Lord Caitanya did not advent Himself to liberate only a few men of India. Rather, His main objective was to emancipate all living entities of all countries throughout the entire universe and preach the Eternal Religion. Lord Caitanya says in the Caitanya-Bhagavata: “In every town, country, and village, My name will be sung”. There is no doubt that this unquestionable order will come to pass… Very soon the unparalleled path of Harinama-sankirtan will be propagated all over the world. Already we are seeing the symptoms…(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura goes on to talk about the Salvation Army band marching through the streets of the western world as the first strains of sankirtan in the west) the article continues: Oh for that day when the fortunate English, French, Russian, German, and American people will take up banners, mrdangas, and kartalas and raise kirtana through their streets and towns. When will that day come? Oh for the day when the fair skinned men from their side will raise up the chanting of ‘jaya sacinandana, jaya sacinandana, kijaya’ and join with the Bengali devotees. When will that day be?”
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura continued with his prediction “On such a day they will say, “Our dear Brothers, we have taken shelter of the ocean of Lord Caitanya’s Love; kindly embrace us”. Some will say that this has already happened but if you read the rest of the prediction you will see that it may have happened on the surface but it has not taken place deep within our hearts and souls. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura continues “that day will witness the holy transcendental ecstasy of the Vaisnava dharma to be the only dharma, and all sects and religions will flow like rivers into the ocean of Vaisnava dharma. Oh when will that day come?” In another place he repeats the same prediction a little differently: “Oh when will that day come, when pure and transcendental Vaisnava prema will be the only religion of all souls and all tiny sectarian religions will meet in the unlimited and universal religion of Vaishnavism as rivers merge into the great ocean? O when will that day come?
Another prediction by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura on the future unity of all of the world’s religions is given in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts, pages 68-69 as follows:
“The dharma preached by Caitanya Mahaprabhu is universal and not exclusive … The principle of kirtan as the future church of the world invites all classes of men, without distinction of caste or clan, to the highest cultivation of the spirit. This church, it appears, will spread worldwide and replace all sectarian churches, which exclude outsiders from the precincts of the mosque, church, or temple.”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura once wrote the following statement in an article titled “THAKURA BHAKTIVINODA” which announces with absolute conviction the unquestioned manifestation of the final prophesy just mentioned, while admonishing those who would not participate in it’s fulfillment.
“Thakura Bhaktivinoda has predicted the consummation of religious unity of the world by the appearance of the only universal church which bears the eternal designation of the Brahma Sampradaya. He has given mankind the blessed assurance that all Theistic churches will shortly merge in the one eternal spiritual community by the grace of the Supreme Lord Shree Krishna Chaitanya. The spiritual community is not circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off Divine Event through the Long Ages. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has made the conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of enlightenment. The key stone of the Arch has been laid which will afford the needed shelter to all awakened animation under its ample encircling arms. Those who would thoughtlessly allow their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue to stand in the way of this long hoped for consummation, would have to thank only themselves for not being incorporated in the spiritual society of all pure souls.”
On the last day of His manifest pastimes on this planet Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura said many things. The following statement was one of them:
“The stream which flows from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura will never be dammed up. Remember this and vow to double your efforts to fulfill Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's desires.”
When my Srila Prabhupada was asked about Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s statement that “He had not finished His work” Srila Prabhupada replied: “Then let us finish it, He is Vaishnava, He is all powerful, He could have done, but He left it for us to finish, so we should finish it.”
Unfortunately there are many devotees from the different sangas who do not share this vision of unity and diversity. They insist that their particular Guru or institution is the only authorized avenue for spiritual advancement. Due to their hollow pride of race, pseudo-knowledge or pseudo-virtue and insecurities and weaknesses in their own practice of Bhakti they can only feel good about themselves when they criticize others as being less fortunate because they do not have the association of their particular Gurudeva or Institution.
This attitude does not finish the work of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura it obstructs it. We the disciples of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada have a responsibility to fulfill the order of our spiritual master and finish the work that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura started. To bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy that all the Gaudiya Vaishnavas will embrace in Vaishnava Prema creating a Vaishnava Dharma that is so attractive it will cause all of the other religions of the world to flow into it like the rivers into the ocean. Our failure to do so will place us in the category of those who would thoughtlessly let heir hollow pride get in the way of the consummation of the society for all pure souls and hence we will forfeit having any place in it.
Some may say that we need another Srila Narottam Das Thakura or Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura to make this manifest. However I feel that we already have the order from Srila Prabhupada if we work together to fulfill the order it will happen. We the disciples of Srila Prabhupada have been empowered by HIM to make this manifest by HIS order. Just like everything else that Srila Prabhupada accomplished He did so by empowering his disciples. Srila Prabhupada Himself was empowered to fulfill the order of his Guru Maharaja long after His Guru Maharaja departed form this manifest plane. Now it is up to us to build a consensus amongst all of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas to fulfill this prophesy. And what will happen if we do not do it?
Once my Srila Prabhupada wrote a letter saying that “Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted that in every town and village my name will be heard” “Now” my Srila Prabhupada said: “I have started this world wide mission and some of you are helping me so you will also get some credit”, “however even if all of you were to leave me tomorrow still it would happen only some one else would get the credit.” “God said it would happen therefore it must happen.”
So how much more definitely are the predictions of the pure devotee of the Lord fulfilled by the Lord? Based on Tattva Siddhanta I believe with absolute certainty that Srila Bhaktivinoda’s predictions must be fulfilled. However who will get the credit? Srila Prabhupada has made all of the arrangements. He has placed His disciples everywhere. They are serving in or connected to just about every Gaudiya Sanga. Srila Prabhupada’s books are influencing everyone. The present Acharya’s of two different Gaudiya Matha’s started with and still study Srila Prabhupada’s books on a regular basis. Acharya’s and vaishnavas in all of the other Gaudiya Matha’s read Srila Prabhupada’s books. He has given us the order and he has made all of the arrangements. He has spread his influence everywhere and we need only take up the order with the same conviction and determination and patience and humility and love that He himself displayed as he fulfilled the order of His Guru Maharaja.
Can we become humble enough to celebrate the unity and diversity of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and see all the sangas as different limbs of Lord Caitanya’s body and embrace each other in Vaishnava Prema and by doing so create the Vaishnava dharma that will be so attractive to the whole world that all will enter into it? Will we go down in history as the generation that passed up the greatest golden opportunity to fulfill this order of Srila Prabhupada, to fulfill these prophesies of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura? Or will future generations mark this point in time as the beginning of a new era in Gaudiya Vaishnava history which was inspired by the tireless, humble, patient, loving, efforts of the disciples of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to fulfill His order and these prophesies of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura? Will the future generations remember us as the ones who failed to fulfill the order of Srila Prabhupada and kept everyone apart or the ones who built the consensus that brought everyone together to fulfill the prophecy of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura?
I ask all of you who are Srila Prabhupada’s disciples and followers, how do YOU want to be remembered in the annals of Gaudiya Vaishnava History? This prophecy will be fulfilled! Will we, as Srila Prabhupada’s disciples let this opportunity pass to another generation to fulfill? Or will we follow in the footsteps of our Guru Maharaja and fulfill the order?
HISTORY IS CALLING! ARE WE LISTENING?
Posted by Uncle Bhagavat Maharaja at 9:12 AM
Labels: bhakti bhakti bhakti Caitanya chaitanya krishna krsna radha sankirtan Srila Gurudeva Srila Narayan Maharaja Srila Prabhupada yoga hari Nama
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Thursday, August 20, 2009
The Appeareance day of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
http://srilagourgovindamaharaja.com/
MP3 Files Movies
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Biography
His Divine Grace Om Vishnupada Sri Srimad Gaura Govinda Swami Maharaja made his appearance on September 2nd 1929, in the village of Jagannatha-pura, not far from Jagannatha-puri Dhama, Orissa, India. Sri Braja-bandhu, as His Divine Grace was then known, grew up in the village of Gadai-giri, where he practiced devotional service to Krishna from his early childhood. His grandfather was a paramahamsa, whose only business was to chant Hare Krishna and cry before the Deity of Krishna, known locally as Gopal Jiu. He taught Braja-bandhu how to count by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra on his fingers.
In his childhood Braja-bandhu would travel with his uncles from village to village chanting Hare Krishna and singing the songs of Narottama das Thakura. The Giri family, in which Srila Gaura Govinda Swami appeared, have been known among the most famous kirtana performers in Orissa since the time of Syamananda Prabhu. Three hundred years ago in the temple register of Jagannatha Puri, the King of Orissa wrote that the kirtana party of Gadai-giri should come perform kirtana for Lord Jagannatha whenever possible. In Orissa they are seen as kirtana-gurus.
From the age of six, Braja-bandhu worshiped the Deity of Gopal by making galands and sometimes, under the light of a candle, singing hymes for Him from palm leaf manuscripts. He would never take any food that was not offered to Gopal. Articles
Simplicity and Faith
[Lansing, Michigan: October 28, 1991
How to Find a Sadhu?
[Vancouver, Canada: May 1993]
The Appearance Of Lord Krsna
[A lecture given on 08.18.95 in Bhubaneswar, India.]
Why Krsna Became Gauranga Mahaprabhu
The Blue Jackal
[Questions and Answers with
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, Paris 1987]
Sri Guru-vandana / Vyasa-puja
The Worship of Sri Guru
Chapter Three -- The Meaning of Vyasa-Puja
Q & A: Physical Contact is Required
[Excerpts from Pariprasna: The Process of Inquiry]
Sheep Logic Living Sadhu
A Sadhu is Always Present
There Is No One Like My Guru
[From a Lecture given on 04.07.92, BBSR]
A Society Without Envy
[This wonderful lecture was one of the last given
by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj, before he departed from this world]
After the Disappearance of Sri Guru
Crooked Disciples
Why the Feet of Sri Guru
The Departure of Srila Gour Govinda Swami
By the age of eight, Braja-bandhu had read the entire bhagavad-gita, Srimad-bhagavatam and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta and could also explain their meanings. At night many villagers would come to hear his recitation of the Oriya Bhagavata, Ramayana and Mahabharata. In this way, from the very beginning of his life he was absorbed in chanting Hare Krishna, studying Vaishnava literature and worshiping his beloved Gopal. His natural inclination to the Lord indicated his future devotional life, just as the morning shows the day.
After the death of his father in 1955, he became responsible for maintaining the family. And when he entered the grihasta ashrama, on the request of his widowed mother the burden increased. He met his wife, Srimati Vasanti Devi, for the first time during the marriage ceremony. Owing to financial constraints he could not avail himself of university education. But he prepared himself at night to attend the examinations. Within two months he successfully graduated, acquiring the second position among all the students of Utkal University. In this way he completed his B.A. and later his B.Ed. Despite many responsibilities, his devotion for Gopal never slacked. Always keeping Krishna in the center, he would daily speak to his family from the bhagavad-gita and early in the morning worship Tulasi. Also during this time as a householder, when he adopted the profession of a school teacher, he would take every opportunity to speak to his students, about Krishna and the devotional principles. Thirty years later, some of his students were to become his disciples.
On April 8th, 1974, his deep love for Krishna called him to renounce worldly life. At the age of 45 he left home and relatives in quest of spiritual perfection. Carrying only a bhagavad-gita and a begging bowl he wandered around India for one year and visited many sacred places along the river Ganges. He was searching for that person who could help him develop an understanding of the maha-mantra. After many philosophical debates with mayavadi sannyasis and yogis in the Himalayas, he proceeded on foot to Vrindavana, the sacred lila-bhumi of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna, thinking that in Krishna"s dear abode his desire would be fulfilled
Two weeks after arriving in Vrindavana he saw a signboard with the words International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Founder-acharya A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. Then he met a group of Western devotees who gave him a copy of back to Godhead magazine. When he read the contents describing the glory of divine love for Krishna, his heart became anxious to meet the founder of the movement, Srila Prabhupada. At last he was to meet his eternal spiritual master, whose association he had been awaiting for such a long time.
Srila Prabhupada had just finished his lunch when Gaura Govinda Swami entered the room and paid his obeisances. Srila Prabhupada then asked him, "Have you taken sannyasa?"
Gaura Govinda Swami said, "no," and Srila Prabhupada said, "Then I will give you sannyasa." At that time Gaura Govinda Swami understood that Prabhupada knew his heart and surrendered to him.
In 1975, at the opening of ISKCON"s Krishna-Balaram Temple in Vrindavana, Srila Prabhupada accepted him as a disciple, gave him the name Gaura Govinda and awarded him the sannyasa order. Then Srila Prabhupada sent him to preach in Orissa, and construct a temple on the newly donated property in Bhubaneswar.
At that time, the donated land was a wild jungle full of mosquitoes, snake and scorpions. It was so far from the city center that even during the daytime people were scared to visit out of fear of dacoits. But Srila Gaura Govinda Swami, considering the desire of Srila Prabhupada his life and soul, was undaunted and worked with unwavering determination to fulfill it. Sometimes residing in the storeroom of a tea dealer and even sometimes sharing a small hut with the road construction workers, he began translating Srila Prabhupada"s books into Oriya as he had been instructed.
Spreading Krishna consciousness, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would visit house after house, office after office, in and around Bhubaneswar, sometimes walking sometimes riding on the carriage rack of a bicycle peddled by a local student, who later became his dear disciple, Sacinandana dasa. In this way he collected some small donations and with his own hands constructed a thatched hut on the donated property.
In early 1977 Srila Prabhupada came to Bhubaneswar. Although arrangements had been made for Srila Prabhupada to stay comfortably in the government state guest house, Srila Prabhupada at once rejected this proposal. He said, "I will only stay where my disciple child Gaura Govinda has built a mud hut for me."Srila Prabhupada stayed in Bhubaneswar for seventeen days, during which he laid the foundation stone of the temple-to-be on the auspicious occasion of Lord Nityananda"s appearance day. This was Srila Prabhupada"s last founded project.
In 1991, after sixteen years of determined endeavors, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami fulfilled the instruction of his spiritual master with the opening of a magnificent temple of Sri Sri Krishna-Balarama which now attracts thousands of people! to Krishna consciousness. Srila Gaura Govinda Swami said "I have opened a "crying school" here in Bhubaneswar. Unless we cry for Krishna, we cannot get his mercy." This was the message he preached so vigorously all over the world during the last ten years of his manifest pastimes.
Although Srila Gaura Govinda Swami was always meek and humble in his personal dealings, in his classes on Srimad-bhagavatam he would roar like a lion, smashing the pride and cutting the misconceptions from the hearts of his disciples. Sometimes he would read an apparently basic philosophical statement from Prabhupada"s purports. Then he would laugh like a child and say, "Here the topic of krishna-prema comes up, but it requires further explanation." Then he would astound the devotees by giving more and more profound explanations of the same sentence for two or three hours. On one such occasion he said, "Look, Krishna is laughing at me because I am trying to completely describe this topic, which is unlimited."
Srila Gaura Govinda Swami"s knowledge of scripture was formidable. He would substantiate everything he said with evidence from all over the Vedic literature. Sometimes he would question a disciple and if the disciple could not answer with reference to the scriptures, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would at once exclaim, "He is a cheater. Don"t be a crooked person. A Vaishnava quotes authority."
On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaura Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In anser to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krishna when Krishna was away from Vrindavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krishna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krishna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krishna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krishna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krishna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord.
Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled.
paramananda he madhava
padungaluchi makaranda
se-makaranda pana-kari
anande bolo 'hari hari'
harinka name vandha vela
pari karive caka-dola
se-caka-dolanka-payare
mana-mo rahu nirantare
mana mo nirantare rahu
'ha-krishna' boli jiva jau
'ha-krishna' boli jau jiva
mote udhara radha-dhava
mote udhara radha-dhava
mote udhara radha-dhava
"O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krishna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me."
The sadhu never speaks theoretically.
Disappearance Day of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja -- Germany: February 21, 2003
Disappearance Day of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja -- Singapore: January 13, 2001
[ Also: Gour Govinda Gaudiya Matha Page
and Photograph Album ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link
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http://srilagourgovindamaharaja.com/
MP3 Files Movies
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Biography
His Divine Grace Om Vishnupada Sri Srimad Gaura Govinda Swami Maharaja made his appearance on September 2nd 1929, in the village of Jagannatha-pura, not far from Jagannatha-puri Dhama, Orissa, India. Sri Braja-bandhu, as His Divine Grace was then known, grew up in the village of Gadai-giri, where he practiced devotional service to Krishna from his early childhood. His grandfather was a paramahamsa, whose only business was to chant Hare Krishna and cry before the Deity of Krishna, known locally as Gopal Jiu. He taught Braja-bandhu how to count by chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra on his fingers.
In his childhood Braja-bandhu would travel with his uncles from village to village chanting Hare Krishna and singing the songs of Narottama das Thakura. The Giri family, in which Srila Gaura Govinda Swami appeared, have been known among the most famous kirtana performers in Orissa since the time of Syamananda Prabhu. Three hundred years ago in the temple register of Jagannatha Puri, the King of Orissa wrote that the kirtana party of Gadai-giri should come perform kirtana for Lord Jagannatha whenever possible. In Orissa they are seen as kirtana-gurus.
From the age of six, Braja-bandhu worshiped the Deity of Gopal by making galands and sometimes, under the light of a candle, singing hymes for Him from palm leaf manuscripts. He would never take any food that was not offered to Gopal. Articles
Simplicity and Faith
[Lansing, Michigan: October 28, 1991
How to Find a Sadhu?
[Vancouver, Canada: May 1993]
The Appearance Of Lord Krsna
[A lecture given on 08.18.95 in Bhubaneswar, India.]
Why Krsna Became Gauranga Mahaprabhu
The Blue Jackal
[Questions and Answers with
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, Paris 1987]
Sri Guru-vandana / Vyasa-puja
The Worship of Sri Guru
Chapter Three -- The Meaning of Vyasa-Puja
Q & A: Physical Contact is Required
[Excerpts from Pariprasna: The Process of Inquiry]
Sheep Logic Living Sadhu
A Sadhu is Always Present
There Is No One Like My Guru
[From a Lecture given on 04.07.92, BBSR]
A Society Without Envy
[This wonderful lecture was one of the last given
by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj, before he departed from this world]
After the Disappearance of Sri Guru
Crooked Disciples
Why the Feet of Sri Guru
The Departure of Srila Gour Govinda Swami
By the age of eight, Braja-bandhu had read the entire bhagavad-gita, Srimad-bhagavatam and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta and could also explain their meanings. At night many villagers would come to hear his recitation of the Oriya Bhagavata, Ramayana and Mahabharata. In this way, from the very beginning of his life he was absorbed in chanting Hare Krishna, studying Vaishnava literature and worshiping his beloved Gopal. His natural inclination to the Lord indicated his future devotional life, just as the morning shows the day.
After the death of his father in 1955, he became responsible for maintaining the family. And when he entered the grihasta ashrama, on the request of his widowed mother the burden increased. He met his wife, Srimati Vasanti Devi, for the first time during the marriage ceremony. Owing to financial constraints he could not avail himself of university education. But he prepared himself at night to attend the examinations. Within two months he successfully graduated, acquiring the second position among all the students of Utkal University. In this way he completed his B.A. and later his B.Ed. Despite many responsibilities, his devotion for Gopal never slacked. Always keeping Krishna in the center, he would daily speak to his family from the bhagavad-gita and early in the morning worship Tulasi. Also during this time as a householder, when he adopted the profession of a school teacher, he would take every opportunity to speak to his students, about Krishna and the devotional principles. Thirty years later, some of his students were to become his disciples.
On April 8th, 1974, his deep love for Krishna called him to renounce worldly life. At the age of 45 he left home and relatives in quest of spiritual perfection. Carrying only a bhagavad-gita and a begging bowl he wandered around India for one year and visited many sacred places along the river Ganges. He was searching for that person who could help him develop an understanding of the maha-mantra. After many philosophical debates with mayavadi sannyasis and yogis in the Himalayas, he proceeded on foot to Vrindavana, the sacred lila-bhumi of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna, thinking that in Krishna"s dear abode his desire would be fulfilled
Two weeks after arriving in Vrindavana he saw a signboard with the words International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Founder-acharya A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. Then he met a group of Western devotees who gave him a copy of back to Godhead magazine. When he read the contents describing the glory of divine love for Krishna, his heart became anxious to meet the founder of the movement, Srila Prabhupada. At last he was to meet his eternal spiritual master, whose association he had been awaiting for such a long time.
Srila Prabhupada had just finished his lunch when Gaura Govinda Swami entered the room and paid his obeisances. Srila Prabhupada then asked him, "Have you taken sannyasa?"
Gaura Govinda Swami said, "no," and Srila Prabhupada said, "Then I will give you sannyasa." At that time Gaura Govinda Swami understood that Prabhupada knew his heart and surrendered to him.
In 1975, at the opening of ISKCON"s Krishna-Balaram Temple in Vrindavana, Srila Prabhupada accepted him as a disciple, gave him the name Gaura Govinda and awarded him the sannyasa order. Then Srila Prabhupada sent him to preach in Orissa, and construct a temple on the newly donated property in Bhubaneswar.
At that time, the donated land was a wild jungle full of mosquitoes, snake and scorpions. It was so far from the city center that even during the daytime people were scared to visit out of fear of dacoits. But Srila Gaura Govinda Swami, considering the desire of Srila Prabhupada his life and soul, was undaunted and worked with unwavering determination to fulfill it. Sometimes residing in the storeroom of a tea dealer and even sometimes sharing a small hut with the road construction workers, he began translating Srila Prabhupada"s books into Oriya as he had been instructed.
Spreading Krishna consciousness, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would visit house after house, office after office, in and around Bhubaneswar, sometimes walking sometimes riding on the carriage rack of a bicycle peddled by a local student, who later became his dear disciple, Sacinandana dasa. In this way he collected some small donations and with his own hands constructed a thatched hut on the donated property.
In early 1977 Srila Prabhupada came to Bhubaneswar. Although arrangements had been made for Srila Prabhupada to stay comfortably in the government state guest house, Srila Prabhupada at once rejected this proposal. He said, "I will only stay where my disciple child Gaura Govinda has built a mud hut for me."Srila Prabhupada stayed in Bhubaneswar for seventeen days, during which he laid the foundation stone of the temple-to-be on the auspicious occasion of Lord Nityananda"s appearance day. This was Srila Prabhupada"s last founded project.
In 1991, after sixteen years of determined endeavors, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami fulfilled the instruction of his spiritual master with the opening of a magnificent temple of Sri Sri Krishna-Balarama which now attracts thousands of people! to Krishna consciousness. Srila Gaura Govinda Swami said "I have opened a "crying school" here in Bhubaneswar. Unless we cry for Krishna, we cannot get his mercy." This was the message he preached so vigorously all over the world during the last ten years of his manifest pastimes.
Although Srila Gaura Govinda Swami was always meek and humble in his personal dealings, in his classes on Srimad-bhagavatam he would roar like a lion, smashing the pride and cutting the misconceptions from the hearts of his disciples. Sometimes he would read an apparently basic philosophical statement from Prabhupada"s purports. Then he would laugh like a child and say, "Here the topic of krishna-prema comes up, but it requires further explanation." Then he would astound the devotees by giving more and more profound explanations of the same sentence for two or three hours. On one such occasion he said, "Look, Krishna is laughing at me because I am trying to completely describe this topic, which is unlimited."
Srila Gaura Govinda Swami"s knowledge of scripture was formidable. He would substantiate everything he said with evidence from all over the Vedic literature. Sometimes he would question a disciple and if the disciple could not answer with reference to the scriptures, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would at once exclaim, "He is a cheater. Don"t be a crooked person. A Vaishnava quotes authority."
On February 9th, 1996, the holy appearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, two senior devotees requested an appointment to see Srila Gaura Govinda Swami. They had never spoken with him before, but they had become eager to hear from him after reading some of his books. As if by providential arrangement, they entered his room at 6.00 p.m. and submissively inquired, "Why did Caitanya Mahaprabhu stay in Jagannatha Puri?" He laughed with delight and began to explain the confidential significance of Mahaprabhu's pastimes. In anser to this question he lovingly described the pain of separation felt by Radha and Krishna when Krishna was away from Vrindavana. He had often narrated this moving pastime as recorded in Chapter Eight of this great work, "The Embankment of Separation". Enchanting all the devotees in his room with the nectarean topics of Krishna, he gradually unfolded the pastime to the point where Radha and Krishna were finally united after Their long separation. He described how Krishna became so ecstatic upon seeing Radharani that He manifested a form with big round eyes, known as Lord Jagannatha. With a choked voice he said, "Then the eyes of Krishna fell upon the eyes of Radharani. Eye-to-Eye union." Overwhelmed with love for Radha and Krishna, he apologized with folded hands, "Please excuse me, I cannot speak". In a barely audible voice he gave his final instruction: "Nama Koro! Nama Koro! (Chant the holy name)" All the devotees began to chant as their spiritual master lay back on his bed, breathing very slowly and deeply. A servant nearby placed a picture of Gopal Jiu in his hand. Then, gazing lovingly at the picture of his worshipable deity, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami called out, "Gopal!" and departed for the spiritual sky to be united with his beloved Lord.
Every day before Srimad-Bhagavatam class, Srila Gaura Govinda Swami would sing a song he had learned as a boy. Now his prayer was fulfilled.
paramananda he madhava
padungaluchi makaranda
se-makaranda pana-kari
anande bolo 'hari hari'
harinka name vandha vela
pari karive caka-dola
se-caka-dolanka-payare
mana-mo rahu nirantare
mana mo nirantare rahu
'ha-krishna' boli jiva jau
'ha-krishna' boli jau jiva
mote udhara radha-dhava
mote udhara radha-dhava
mote udhara radha-dhava
"O supremely blissful Madhava! The nectar is coming from Your lotus feet. Drinking that nectar, I blissfully sing 'Hari! Hari!' With the name of Hari I am binding a raft on which Lord Jagannatha will ferry me across this ocean of material existence. My mind always remains at the lotus feet of that Lord Jagannatha who has very large round eyes. In this way, I call out "Ha Krishna!" and give up my life. O husband of Radharani, please deliver me."
The sadhu never speaks theoretically.
Disappearance Day of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja -- Germany: February 21, 2003
Disappearance Day of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja
by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja -- Singapore: January 13, 2001
[ Also: Gour Govinda Gaudiya Matha Page
and Photograph Album ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
If you do not want to receive any more newsletters, this link
To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link
Forward a Message to Someone this link
Sri Krsna Janmathmi in Vrndavan and Mathura
Hare Krsna All
All Glories to Srila Gurudeva
I always wanted to expereince
Sri Krsna Janmastmi in Vrndavan
Dham and by some miracle,the
Lord made it possible today.
Early morning around 3am
we were up ,ready to go
for Mangal Arathi to Mathura
we staying in Vrndavan.Nekram
our auto rickshaw was ready
so we left around 4am ,however
due to the much needed heavy
rains last night and because of
heavy traffic that will be going
to Mathura today the main roads
leading to Mathura and to Keshavji
Gaudiya Matha were closed.Unfortuanetly
we missed Mangal Arathi and arrived
as the Arathi had just finished.However
we had Darshan of Sri Sri Radha Vinodha
Bihariji and Gauranga Mahaprabhu.
Also our Beloved Srila Gurudeva gave
class and explained the reason why
Sri Krsna our Lord appears to this
world and Srila Gurudeva also explained
how Vasudeva took Sri Krsna out of the
cells through the Yamuna river and how
Yamunaji wanted Darshan of the Lord
and how she kept on raising towards the Lord
and the Lord reciprocated and took his Lotus
feet so that jamunaji can take darshan.
We could not go back to Mathura in the evening
as all the roads were closed,so after class Sripad
Damodara Maharaja gave class for all the english
speaking devotees and Sripad Thirtha Maharaja
and others gave class for the Hindi spaking devotees.
After class we headed back to Vrndavan and spent
the rest of the day there fasting it was not so hot
though ,Krsna was kind to us,for the evening
we went to Krsna priya didi`s temple a disciple
of Srila Gurudeva and she has beautiful deities
of Sri Radha and Krsna and Krsna Balarama.
Sripad Damodara Maharaja at midnight
did abhishek and we all sang kirtans glorifying
the Lord and then we all took Ekadasi prasad
and departed.The next day was Srila Prabupada`s
Vyasa Puja and we drove to Mathura also this
was our last day sadly though in the Dham.
Srila Gurudeva gave class in glorification
of his siksha Guru and told about how Srila
Prabhupada spread Krsna Consciousness
all over the world.We had to leave therafter
we took Darshan of Srila Gurudeva and left
for South Africa to prepare for Srila Gurudeva`s
historic visit to South Africa next year January 2010.
And also our festivals of devotion for 6 weeks
wih Sripad Ashram and Damodara Maharaja`s
througout Durban and Pietermaritzburg
the city of choice for Srila Narayana Maharaja`s
Gaudiya Matha preaching.
All Glories to Srila Gurudeva
I always wanted to expereince
Sri Krsna Janmastmi in Vrndavan
Dham and by some miracle,the
Lord made it possible today.
Early morning around 3am
we were up ,ready to go
for Mangal Arathi to Mathura
we staying in Vrndavan.Nekram
our auto rickshaw was ready
so we left around 4am ,however
due to the much needed heavy
rains last night and because of
heavy traffic that will be going
to Mathura today the main roads
leading to Mathura and to Keshavji
Gaudiya Matha were closed.Unfortuanetly
we missed Mangal Arathi and arrived
as the Arathi had just finished.However
we had Darshan of Sri Sri Radha Vinodha
Bihariji and Gauranga Mahaprabhu.
Also our Beloved Srila Gurudeva gave
class and explained the reason why
Sri Krsna our Lord appears to this
world and Srila Gurudeva also explained
how Vasudeva took Sri Krsna out of the
cells through the Yamuna river and how
Yamunaji wanted Darshan of the Lord
and how she kept on raising towards the Lord
and the Lord reciprocated and took his Lotus
feet so that jamunaji can take darshan.
We could not go back to Mathura in the evening
as all the roads were closed,so after class Sripad
Damodara Maharaja gave class for all the english
speaking devotees and Sripad Thirtha Maharaja
and others gave class for the Hindi spaking devotees.
After class we headed back to Vrndavan and spent
the rest of the day there fasting it was not so hot
though ,Krsna was kind to us,for the evening
we went to Krsna priya didi`s temple a disciple
of Srila Gurudeva and she has beautiful deities
of Sri Radha and Krsna and Krsna Balarama.
Sripad Damodara Maharaja at midnight
did abhishek and we all sang kirtans glorifying
the Lord and then we all took Ekadasi prasad
and departed.The next day was Srila Prabupada`s
Vyasa Puja and we drove to Mathura also this
was our last day sadly though in the Dham.
Srila Gurudeva gave class in glorification
of his siksha Guru and told about how Srila
Prabhupada spread Krsna Consciousness
all over the world.We had to leave therafter
we took Darshan of Srila Gurudeva and left
for South Africa to prepare for Srila Gurudeva`s
historic visit to South Africa next year January 2010.
And also our festivals of devotion for 6 weeks
wih Sripad Ashram and Damodara Maharaja`s
througout Durban and Pietermaritzburg
the city of choice for Srila Narayana Maharaja`s
Gaudiya Matha preaching.
Saturday, August 8, 2009
Sri Krsna Janmasthmi Pietermaritzburg
Hare Krsna ALL
Please accept my dandavat pranams
All Glories to Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja
I greet you all from Sri Vrndavana Dham,my wife and
i reached here yesterday by the Mercy our our Beloved
Srila Gurudeva and Gauranga Mahaprabhu.
Today we had the great fortune of having Darshan
of our Srila Gurudeva in his room at Govardhana
temple.Srila Gurudeva looks in good health and
is ready to come to South Africa next year January.
Srila Gurudeva told me today that for a long time
he had a desire to come to South Africa.
By the Mercy of our most Merciful Lord
Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu he is sending
his Pure Devotee for the first time to South
Africa and to the African continent.Srila
Gurudeva will be following in the footsteps
of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada his
Siksha Guru who also came to South Africa
in 1975 and also set foot in Pietermaritzburg
city hall.
The devotees in Pietermaritzburg had
Nama Hatta yesterday and confirmed
arrangements for next weeks Sri Krsna
Janmasthmi celebrations to be held till
midnight,i was just informed of all the
very nice arrangements they are making.
Srila Gurudeva will be most pleased with
all their efforts to please him.
I will have the great fortune to be here
with our Srila Gurudeva and will celebrate
Sri Krsna Janmasthmi in Mathura next week
friday and the next day Srila Prabhupada`s
Vyasa Puja.I`ll write about it all shortly.
Srila Gurudeva Ki jai!Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai!
Please accept my dandavat pranams
All Glories to Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja
I greet you all from Sri Vrndavana Dham,my wife and
i reached here yesterday by the Mercy our our Beloved
Srila Gurudeva and Gauranga Mahaprabhu.
Today we had the great fortune of having Darshan
of our Srila Gurudeva in his room at Govardhana
temple.Srila Gurudeva looks in good health and
is ready to come to South Africa next year January.
Srila Gurudeva told me today that for a long time
he had a desire to come to South Africa.
By the Mercy of our most Merciful Lord
Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu he is sending
his Pure Devotee for the first time to South
Africa and to the African continent.Srila
Gurudeva will be following in the footsteps
of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada his
Siksha Guru who also came to South Africa
in 1975 and also set foot in Pietermaritzburg
city hall.
The devotees in Pietermaritzburg had
Nama Hatta yesterday and confirmed
arrangements for next weeks Sri Krsna
Janmasthmi celebrations to be held till
midnight,i was just informed of all the
very nice arrangements they are making.
Srila Gurudeva will be most pleased with
all their efforts to please him.
I will have the great fortune to be here
with our Srila Gurudeva and will celebrate
Sri Krsna Janmasthmi in Mathura next week
friday and the next day Srila Prabhupada`s
Vyasa Puja.I`ll write about it all shortly.
Srila Gurudeva Ki jai!Srila Prabhupada Ki Jai!
Saturday, August 1, 2009
A response to Iskcon South Africa`s statement regarding Srila Narayana Maharaja an article written by Iskcon`s Keshava Krsna prabhu
Hare Krsna to All
Recently Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj`s
Siksha Disciple Darmavira prabhu a disciple of
Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja`s
disciple Brajbihari prabhu opened a Temple
in Lenasia Johannesburg.Their Lordships Sri
Sri Radha Govinda was installed.However
Iskcon Gauteng represented by Keshava Krsna
dasa a disciple of Giriraja Maharaja from
Iskcon wrote 2 articles without any facts.
It amazes me that when other Vaishnava groups
are sincerely trying to preach on behalf of
our Guru Maharaj and Guru Parampara and Sri
Caitanya Mahaprabhu that this type of behaviour
is seen by writing all this untruths.
This Blog was created so that no politics
will be written and only activities that
uplift our Bhakti and inspire others to
follow this pathof Pure Bhakti.However
as a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Maharaja i feel it my duty
to defend the Great Honour o my Dear
Beloved Spiritual Master.So i decided
for Kesava Krsna Dasa and others who find
great joy writing false articles and circulating
i hereby submit minutes of a meeting held in Sri
Vrndavan Dham and what must be noted that Kesava
Krsna prabhu`s guru is defending Srila Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Maharaja as his Siksha Guru after all
there is no difference between Diksha and Siksha
Guru.
© 1999 VNN
WORLD
March 10, 1999 VNN3289
Vrindavana Istagosthi addressing Gopi-bhava and Narayana Maharaja
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BY PURU DAS ADHIKARI
USA, Mar 10 (VNN) — Dear Prabhus, Dandavats and pranams. All glories to Sri Guru and Gouranga. In my effort to bring to light information about ISKCON's history and events otherwise not generally known by the larger body of rank and file devotees I offer you this transcript of November l994 GBC Committee meetings with regard to my siksa guru Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj.
I said previously in the introduction to "Cooperation" that Srila Narayana Maharj was not always persona non grata in ISKCON. At this time, l994, Girirj Swami and Tamal Krsna Goswami had not yet buckled under gbc pressures to disassociate with him, and gave some rather rational explanations in defense of taking his darshan and siksa. Read for yourself and you decide. I can only wonder how much heavy handed behavior came down on their heads to force them, some time later, to adjust their position and go against their hearts. Your Servant, Puru Das Adhikari
Vrindavana Istagosthi addressing Gopi-bhava and Narayana Maharaja
5 November 1994
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Part l: Morning Session
On the request of Naveen Krsna Prabhu, the GBC Chairman, His Holiness Lokanath Swami organized a committee of senior devotees consisting of HH Radhanath Swami, HH Indradyumna Swami, HH Bhakti-vidya-purna Swami, HH Bhakti Caitanya Swami, HG Krsna Ksetra Prabhu and HG Pancaratna Prabhu, to clarify some of the basic issues regarding senior ISKCON leaders visiting HH Narayana Maharaja. The committee first interviewed concerned persons in Vrindavan and thereafter presented a written compilation of their concerns to HH Tamal Krsna Gosvami, HH Giriraj Swami, HH Dhanurdhara Swami and HG Bhurijana Prabhu. The following conversation represents these devotees' response to the various points of concern in the document.
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Giriraja Swami (GS): This whole document has come from those opposed to us. The ideas they are attributing to us are not our ideas at all.
Lokanath Swami (LS): You could say there's a misunderstanding of...we are misunderstood and...
GS: People may say we say certain things that we don't.
LS: Actually that is the purpose of this get-together.
Bhurijana Prabhu (BP): I have one question. What are the thoughts of the GBC body?
Pancaratna Prabhu (PP): Unfortunately the only GBC members I've had access to during our work were Gopal Krsna Maharaja and Mukunda Maharaja and whatever we picked up over Com, from Hrdayananda and Bhakti Charu Maharaja. The other persons were not GBC members.
BP: My personal position is not at all represented here. I have a doubt that the opposing position is properly represented either.
PP: That's why we've invited other senior devotees here who might have some idea of the opposing positions.
Tamal Krsna Goswami (TKG): That's fair enough.
PP: With your permission, as we are short of time, we'd like to start.
Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja (BVPM): I'm just wondering if it wouldn't be appropriate to get some history. My understanding was that there was a certain settlement on this issue made at the last GBC meetings. If that's the case, what is now the problem? What has transpired to bring this discussion about?
GS: I think the first thing to do is to read the undertaking and to explain what it actually means.
TKG: I'll read to you from a letter I put on Com today. "It is my clear understanding - and I believe it is the understanding of the others who signed the undertaking of the GBC - that we had the GBC's approval to continue regarding HH Narayana Maharaja as our siksa-guru. From what certain GBC members have written both on Com and through personal correspondence, it is clear that it is they who do not know what the undertaking was. For example, HH Suhotra Swami communicated to a temple president (who happens to be my disciple) in his zone the outcome of what he termed a "gentlemen's agreement." He wrote: "The GBC men who have been visiting Narayana Maharaja for instruction on raganuga-bhakti will stop that and will limit their connection with him to only social, formal invitations."
The actual undertaking was:
1. We will not regularly visit HH Narayana Maharaja for instruction or siksa, nor engage in any systematic study under him. 2. Will not publicly display any affection for Narayana Maharaja over and above normal Vaisnava etiquette. Private interaction be conducted in order to maintain normal friendly relationships. 4. We will not display or disseminate any tapes or transcripts of HH Narayana Maharaja."
There were two more undertakings but they're not as relevant. I can read them if you want, but they don't figure in the following review.
"Please note that there is no mention of raganuga-bhakti anywhere in the undertaking. Please also note and carefully read where it says, 'We will not regularly visit HH Narayana Maharaja for instructions.' It does not say that we will stop all siksa and study of the scripture with him. Rather it will no longer be done regularly or in a systematic fashion. Since we still regard him as a siksa-guru, how can our visits to him be any other than taking siksa from him? We agreed to not publicly display any affection for him. That implies we may privately have such affection for him.
"Also please note, 'We will not display or disseminate any tapes or transcripts of his.' There is no mention that we may not make use of such tapes or transcripts for our personal edification. When I was questioned directly in a GBC plenary session as to what my relationship with Narayana Maharaja was, I clearly responded that I accepted him as my siksa-guru. Never in any of the meetings were we told that we were no longer allowed to do so. Therefore the conclusion of the meetings have clearly indicated that the GBC has given its approval for our maintaining a siksa relationship with him, and that we are not in violation of the 1982 resolution."
These are the undertakings exactly. That's what they are and how we understand them.
PP: To give just a bit more history. As the proceedings of the GBC were private and were not made public, the general body of devotees still experience confusion, misunderstanding, perhaps doubts, apprehensions and so on. And then recently at the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony, which was conducted at Mathura, various speeches were made, and those were transcribed and circulated.
I think Kurma Rupa transcribed it and somehow began to circulate it. So various statements made on that occasion raised doubts amongst some GBC members and many others here and elsewhere that lead to the issues that we have to discuss.
TKG: Unfortunately, so many things are being circulated. The GBC promised to fulfill its part of the undertaking by collecting all the materials (originals and copies both) which were stolen from Sacinandana Swami and return them to him. But to this very day they are still being distributed by some of the same persons who stole them. Anyway, this is a message from myself and Giriraj Maharaja that we put on Com today. "Yesterday Badarinarayana prabhu's Com message about our talks at Visvarupa Mahotsava came into our hands through a friend. Although immediately after the event we informed His Holiness Jagadish Goswami, the GBC liaison, about the situation, as the discussion has now come on Com we shall explain here as well." The GBC liaison was the number 6 undertaking made by the GBC. Nothing was to be done except through the liaison. To avoid this whole thing coming on Com as it did last year, we arranged for a liaison.
BP: We didn't, the GBC did.
TKG: The GBC did.
BP: We were not even there.
TKG: As far as who spread this on Com, it was Suhotra Swami. Kurma Rupa has no access to GBC Com.
"When I visited Vrindavan after Janmastami I was met by many concerned devotees who told me how offended and hurt Narayana Maharaja was that we had not invited him to Balarama's Appearance Day, how hurt and confused Narayana Maharaja's followers were that we had not invited him, and how disappointed and confused many ISKCON devotees were that he did not come. Later I heard that Narayana Maharaja had come to his Vrindavan centre on Balarama's Appearance Day expecting us to meet and accompany him to the celebration. Ultimately when no one came he returned to Mathura.
"We further heard that Narayana Maharaja himself had spoken about the incident for many days thereafter. When one devotee asked him to explain his statement, 'Although the maha-bhagavata may not take offense, the dust of his lotus feet may.' Narayana Maharaja replied, 'The dust of the lotus feet indicates the followers of the maha-bhagavata.'
"His devotees were confused. From their point of view, Narayana Maharaja had always tried to help ISKCON and ISKCON's devotees, and they could not understand what wrong he had done to be neglected so, especially after his having been invited for the last twelve years or so."
Dhanurdhara Swami (DS): I can make a point that Bhavananda initially invited him. It was that long ago.
TKG: "I happened to be in Vrindavan in early August, some days before Balarama's Appearance Day. Although as part of the undertaking Narayana Maharaja was not to be invited to attend, still, as the event approached, I could see that to exclude Narayana Maharaja would be highly insulting. I urged those present to try to do something. (At the time, both Bhurijana prabhu and Kadamba Kanana prabhu were outside India.) Apparently nothing could be done.
"According to our agreement with the GBC body, we were to maintain normal friendly relations and not cause offense. Somehow when the GBC agreed to exclude Narayana Maharaja from Balarama's Appearance Day we did not foresee that such an action would indeed constitute an insult and disrupt relations.
"Visvarupa Mahotsava, the day Lord Caitanya's brother took sannyasa and the day Srila Prabhupada took sannyasa from His Holiness Kesava Maharaja at the Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha in Mathura, has been celebrated for the benefit of ISKCON devotees at the Matha for many years. As agreed in Mayapura, ISKCON devotees went. Considering how Narayana Maharaja and his followers had been slighted, we thought the first priority was to satisfy them. Although the audience consisted of both ISKCON devotees and other Gaudiya Vaisnavas, we chose to speak to His Holiness Narayana Maharaja and his followers. Since the offense had been committed by the institution, the situation had to be addressed by representatives of the institution . After our talks at Visvarupa Mahotsava many devotees seemed relieved, and the cloud seemed to have been lifted.
"While we had to say certain things to remove the offense, we were also concerned that our statements should not confuse or disturb devotees who did not realize our intentions. After the event we met with all the senior devotees who were personally present and explained the background. We assured them that we had no intention of defying the GBC or of changing our policy in relation to Narayana Maharaja and ISKCON. We spoke as we did only to mitigate the insult and we hoped never to have to do so again. As the GBC body wanted us to maintain normal friendly relations and not commit offense, we considered we were acting on behalf of the GBC body. Offenses against Vaisnavas are such that they can disturb one's spiritual life even up to the stage of bhava-bhakti, life after life. But we hoped that henceforth if we just observed proper Vaisnava etiquette we could avoid having to speak so strongly. And we apologized for any confusion or disturbance caused by our excesses.
"We wish to reassure the GBC that we will always remain loyal to Srila Prabhupada and the GBC and will always try to work in the best interest of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. At the same time, as GBC members, we will try to help the GBC avoid mistakes in the future. If any members want further discussion or clarification on the subject, they may contact us directly."
As a point of clarification, of all the GBC members who went on Com about this, not one of them ever asked either of us any clarification of what happened. No one asked us why we said what we said.
Krsna Ksetra (KK): It seems that again Com is the culprit.
TKG: That statement about Com is extremely important. You may find that as the day goes on we will repeat that statement.
PP: Visvarupa Mahotsava has made the issue a very hot topic. But I also have to say that since Gaura Purnima, I have been hearing from devotees that I associate with that this is still an issue and that it must be settled. In other words, there's a concern that it was not fully addressed in Gaura Purnima. Devotees are therefore attempting to try and push forward a resolution of these concerns. This document is meant to serve as an agenda for the different concerns.
The paper in your hands, compiled by the senior devotees present, represents what we have heard, what we've understood to be your position. There's definitely speculation involved, so we have to address that.
So I'm going to start. The first point has to do with the sufficiency or insufficiency of association with ISKCON devotees and the acceptance of authority outside of ISKCON. I'll just read...
1. Acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON.
GS: I already disagree with the statement, "acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON." I believe that the term outside of ISKCON is too vague to be workable. We are coming in a parampara that in one sense begins with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, goes through Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, and others. Now, are they in ISKCON? I think in the institutional sense in which we apply the definition, meaning under the GBC body, they're not in ISKCON. But does it mean that because they're not in ISKCON, taking any instruction from them outside of Prabhupada's books is taking siksa from outside ISKCON? And that taking such siksa from outside ISKCON minimizes ISKCON's position or the value of what Prabhupada gave us? This term "outside ISKCON" has been emotionalized and politicized.
BP: And equated with disloyalty to Prabhupada.
GS: First we should decide if taking instruction from Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the previous acaryas from any source outside Prabhupada's books constitutes taking instruction from outside ISKCON and is therefore a violation of ISKCON law.
PP: As a procedure, I'm not going to respond to different points or ask for responses. Our purpose is not to debate, but just to record these statements and the discussion.
GS: I'm just saying logically, as I see it, the basis of the disturbance is in the idea that taking instruction from outside of ISKCON is disloyal. But the definition of "outside of ISKCON" is not workable.
PP: I would like to clarify what I have heard to be the definition of going outside of ISKCON. Their definition of outside of ISKCON means outside of Srila Prabhupada's personal disciplic line, in other words, going backwards and forwards, his gurus and disciples.
GS: I feel that those are false distinctions.
PP: Then you can speak on that also.
GS: Our line is not based exclusively on diksa. In fact, our line specifically is based on siksa. So if someone who is not directly an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada has accepted the same conclusions of the parampara, he's not outside of our line or outside or Srila Prabhupada's line.
PP: The other point as far as what is seen as ISKCON is those who accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya. In other words, ISKCON means those devotees who accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya.
LS: This corresponds to another part of the draft - prejudice - that anything outside ISKCON is bad. This is what Giriraj Maharaja has mentioned.
DS: There seem to be so many issues I really don't think we should try to cover them all. Can we use this draft as a guide to get to the root of the discussion?
GS: If the most basic premises in the controversy are addressed first - like the false duality about inside ISKCON and outside ISKCON - then all the detailed discussion becomes unnecessary.
BP: Perhaps a few basic principles should be discussed I see some over and over again. Like, "Prabhupada said, 'Don't associate with the Gaudiya Math' and you people are doing it." Just talking about that one point would probably remove fifty percent of the other points.
>From the way "Prabhupada said, Don't associate with the Gaudiya Matha" is reiterated again and again it seems that no one has read the paper Giriraj Maharaja put out last year, "Srila Prabhupada's Final Instruction: Cooperate." If these are their objections, they haven't even taken Giriraj Maharaja's paper into consideration or answered his arguments. They might not agree, but they should at least answer his arguments. If people aren't going to listen to our responses, I don't feel like talking. Just a broken record, "Prabhupada said." But Prabhupada also said you can associate with the Gaudiya Math. So if at every point they simply bring up that point without responding to all else Prabhupada said, what's the point of talking?
GS: All these hysterical concerns rest on the basic idea that there's a fault in going outside ISKCON for spiritual instruction. It just doesn't consider the fact that Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Rupa Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, are not in ISKCON.
BP: And Prabhupada before 1966.
PP: Others would disagree, that they are in ISKCON.
GS: Great. If they are in ISKCON, then someone representing them, repeating their instructions with reference to their books, is also in ISKCON, as much as Rupa Gosvami is. This distinction is false.
BVPM: I don't think this meeting has to decide anything. This meeting should just serve to clarify what these Vaisnavas who visit Narayana Maharaja actually feel. What's written on this paper is just a springboard because, as far as I can see, their position is misunderstood.
Radhanath Swami (RS): But that is what people think! So just by going over each of their objections to the positions people think are theirs, we'll get a clear understanding, "Is this what they really feel?" Let's go over each point and try to understand. We've just gotten an understanding of what they feel about acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON. I've learned a lot about what they believe just by hearing. There's no need to decide anything or debate, let's just hear from them.
TKG: There are 22 points in this paper we're discussing, which many people believe is our position and here's our response. That's about all you will get from this draft.
PP: That's exactly what we want.
GS: Just glancing through the draft the other day I got inspired to write something. We made a basic point, that Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the previous acaryas aren't in ISKCON in the sense that they're not under the GBC, but they are our siksa-gurus. And if someone can help us to understand what they taught, he can also be accepted as a siksa-guru. And as valid as Rupa Gosvami's teachings are, the teachings of someone who explains Rupa Goswami's would be similarly valid. We could just discuss basic points like that.
GS: Another point is whether Narayana Maharaja is a bona fide representative of our parampara and therefore whether taking siksa from him is acceptable - and who will decide.
PP: Then a third one is the effect upon the institution of accepting siksa from devotees who are not part of the institution.
TKG: I disagree, because if the principle is understood properly, then proper preaching will insure there is no adverse effect. What you say implies that there is something wrong in taking siksa outside ISKCON. But if we redefine outside, then it may not be an issue anymore and it won't create a disturbance. It's creating a disturbance because people preach that it's improper.
DS: There is an institutional concern. Previously people have made the point that someone outside ISKCON is not legally under the GBC body even if he does represent the parampara.
PP: There are many other practical concerns, like initiations....
GS: I don't think those practical details are what is shaking the movement. What is disturbing the devotees is the idea that taking instruction outside of ISKCON or accepting someone outside of ISKCON as a siksa-guru is wrong, that it is against ISKCON, that it minimizes Prabhupada....
BP: They also fear it points to a deficiency in ISKCON...
PP: You could address all the doubts people have in writing, in a paper. I am not personally so concerned that we stick to this format.
TKG: But sometimes people need to have things spelled out clearly for them. And even though the one item may actually be inclusive of four others, people may not get the message.
LS: For some, clarification of all 22 points will be necessary.
BP: I have a doubt. It seems to me that the essential disagreement that has arisen is not a philosophical problem as much as it is an emotional problem. And if we cy to discuss and resolve it philosophically, it will not have any true effect because, again, the issue is essentially emotional.
PP: But it has to be dimmed philosophically.
BP: I think that's a good challenge for this group: how can we ensure that the level of discussion...how can we push it up to the philosophical level and remove it from the emotional level.
PP: By doing the work now. Don't leave it until the GBC meetings. The GBC meetings is an emotionally charged time with all kinds of pressures. It's just the wrong time to do this kind of work.
GS: I have a request, and I think I speak for all of us. We are not going to be coerced or intimidated into doing something that we think is against Srila Prabhupada and the best interest of ISKCON and the whole parampara. Only if we're convinced that we're doing something wrong will we change.
Devotees should understand that we're not going to respond to intimidation. We're going to fight this till the end. And to convince us, they have to come to the philosophical platform. Either they should convince us or we should convince them. We're not going to respond to any other tactic.
TKG: For instance, one tactic is: "There's a resolution from 1982." If they continue to pull out that resolution without examining philosophically whether it holds water or not, it won't work. That is not the way to convince us. It's a stick. Police-state tactics. But if you're willing to evaluate clearly whether that resolution is actually philosophically sound or not, then, according to the conclusion of [the debate] I'll become convinced or you'll become convinced. But if you just say, "Resolution of 1982" without discussing whether it's valid or not, that's a stick!
Therefore, last year we put forward a proposal that no legislation should be passed against guru, sadhu, and sastra. Do you know what happened? It was shelved They said they didn't feel they could decide on this. That should give you some idea about what the real problem is.
BVPM: A little sidepoint. This meeting, is it to gather material for the GBC body to deal with in a subcommittee or some delegated body? Or is it for a particular group of devotees, or for the devotees worldwide?
Now this draft criticizes these devotees for violating a GBC resolution. But I've also seen the GBC make resolutions time after time, as with the Bhavananda issue, and when it's made, everyone in the GBC is happy. But as soon as it leaves the room and hits the world, within three days it's rejected by everyone.
So how is this issue practically going to be resolved? Sometimes senior devotees don't care for what the GBC body decides. How will this discussion address and remove the difficulties?
PP: What I understand Naveen Krsna prabhu wants us to do is discuss. He's asked Lokanath Maharaja and myself to help him to conduct a dialogue and circulate the results amongst the GBC. Afterr that, we have suggested that some sort of commission be established to come to a proposal by further discussion. All that work should be done before February, and then in February there will be a resolution.
Indradyumna Swami (IS): I think we should communicate to the society as quickly as possible that the views generally attributed to these devotees are not theirs. We should accomplish that. It's reached a crisis stage now.
I would say that the most important thing would be to produce a written response that could be circulated. That would allay a lot of fear in the society, a lot of suspicion, prejudice, etc. Then this meeting could actually carry things one step closer towards a solution and remove a lot of anxiety.
TKG: We could just go through the points attributed to us and comment on them. You could say that you collected statements from very critical and disturbed people, synthesized them and presented them to us to learn our actual position.
IS: Maharaja, I've always said that we should talk about the facts, rather than just the rumors. That brings it to a different level, a more Vaisnava level. Then there can be Vaisnava relations while discussing. If we can remove the rumors, we may be able to remove some of the emotions and then we can debate. Not in this session, but on some level of ISKCON we should discuss the real subject matter.
LS: There are long-term solutions that have to be dealt with - that is what Giriraj Maharaja is propounding - but at the same time, the emergency, the emotions, so many things said and speculated ten thousand miles away from the actual spot. So to me, both should be dealt with, the philosophical and at the same time the emergency problems.
BP: One other thing that we should do is discuss the role of Com in creating the problem. I read something that Suhotra Swami wrote recently that was so disturbing. Basically he quotes this 1982 resolution, then he quotes TKG and GS's speeches at Visvarupa Mahotsava, and then he immediately calls for a count as to how many GBC men thought these two should resign. "Come on, GBC men, should they resign?" Just right out of nowhere he's moving with this kind of speech to bring out the noose. No one thought to ask these two men why they spoke in that fashion. Immediately, "Come, raise your hands if you think they should resign." I think it was so improper and it exposed the un-Vaisnava nature of this media of Com. I think we should put together a strong statement saying it must be stopped. I think it's one of the most disastrous things going on.
And repeating gossip as well. Badarinarayana prabhu wrote a message which airs radical and inaccurate accusations about what's going on in Vrindavan. Then two weeks later we read, "Oh, I am sorry. I didn't mean the letter should go on Com." No personal apologies to those that may have been hurt by the message. No consideration that people tend to believe what they read. I don't think the apology repaired the damage.
Com seems to be a facility for certain elements of ISKCON's business, but its use in heavy and delicate dialogues seems to lead to improprieties.
GS: Many years ago devotees asked Srila Prabhupada if we should install telex in ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada replied, "No. You'll just use it for international gossip."
PP: We have to establish what we're going to do here. Com is a GBC problem and the GBC members should deal with it. It's not an issue for me. I sympathize but I don't think we can spend a lot of time talking on it. It's not our concern.
GS: I am in favor of going through the version of our critics, what they think we believe. Our position and our activities have been so misrepresented that until some of the prejudice is removed they won't be able to hear or discuss philosophy.
IS: This meeting is to air the issue. And then take the next step and the next step so then when you get to Mayapura, it can be dealt with...
PP: Yes. So with everyone's permission, I would like to ask one of your group to respond.
TKG: Okay, we'll start. Point 1, "Acceptance of a spiritual authority", Giriraj Maharaja has already responded. Now go ahead and comment on point 1.1.A:
"To understand raga-marga a qualified ragatmika devotee is needed as a guide. ISKCON devotees are still too neophyte to give this level of guidance, therefore we are forced to look for guidance from other members of Srila Prabhupada's family, i.e. his Godbrothers and God-nephews."
GS: I don't think any of us went to His Holiness Narayana Maharaja either looking for a siksa-guru or looking for guidance on the practice of raganuga-bhakti. In my own case, when I returned to India after seven years, Narayana Maharaja happened to be staying in the ISKCON Guest House in the room next to me. I only had a general impression that he's a nice sadhu. We would meet and discuss krsna-katha and we became friends. Siksa-guru was the last thing in the world that would have entered my mind. But I felt two things very strongly - that he was a very sincere well-wisher of ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada and that he was very learned in the Vaisnava literature of our sampradaya.
So again, the very idea that we have gone outside ISKCON looking for siksa on raganuga-bhakti because we didn't think we could get it within ISKCON is a complete misunderstanding of the history of our relationship with Narayana Maharaja.
PP: Would anyone else like to say something?
TKG: Just as a philosophical point: We don't say that to understand raga-marga one needs a qualified ragatmika devotee as a guide. None of us has ever said it and we don't believe it. A ragatmika devotee is not an advanced sadhaka. He is a resident of Goloka. Even an advanced sadhaka can be very helpful.
DS: And also, there are two ways in which you actually advance in Krsna consciousness. One is by practice and one is by mercy. Certainly it's generally the process to go to advanced Vaisnavas to learn, but I don't think, nor have I heard any members here say that ISKCON devotees are still too neophyte to give this level of guidance and thus we were forced to look for guidance outside of Prabhupada's family. I've never heard anybody say that. I've only heard the greatest regard expressed for the ISKCON Vaisnavas.
Radhanath Swami (RS): The question arises whether you all believe that just by serving Prabhupada you can attain the platform of raga-bhakti, or is it necessary to go to someone who can particularly teach you the procedure. Just by serving Prabhupada's mission, without going outside to a rasika bhakta who's on that platform, can't Prabhupada's mercy bring you to that platform of raganuga bhakti?
TKG: Yes. Definitely. Everyone will say yes.
RS: So there's no need to...
TKG: Just because the answer is yes doesn't necessarily mean that there is no need. Because in addition to guru's mercy, there's a process whereby one hears from an advanced devotee, sadhu-sanga. That's part of sadhana, sadhu-sanga. So even if one will get his guru's mercy by serving the mission, he should nevertheless perform sadhana. If an advanced devotee can help one better understand the philosophy and better perform sadhana, that will also help one obtain the mercy of one's guru.
BP: Association of an advanced devotee also comes by the mercy of guru.
DS: I think we can all say that the essential element for advancement in Krsna consciousness is guru, serving Srila Prabhupada's mission. And one who does that can achieve all perfection. And how Prabhupada reciprocates could be in different ways. I never think that devotees who don't have Narayana Maharaja's association are less. Actually, I see people like Harikesa Maharaja and others who are giving their blood to Prabhupada's mission. I've never heard anybody say in any way that these sincere devotees are disadvantaged. But I think that this is maybe something that Prabhupada arranged for us. If anything, I personally feel that maybe because I am less advanced Prabhupada made this arrangement for me.
BP: If you feel that Krsna is making a specific arrangement for you, then you feel pressure to take advantage of that arrangement. If one doesn't feel that Krsna is making this arrangement, then he won't feel the need to see a devotee such as Narayana Maharaja.
LS: What you are practicing, trying to get the association of Narayana Maharaja, is sadhana.
BP: Panch-anga sadhana bhakti, sadhu-sanga. Krsna bhakti jana mula hai sadhu sanga. It's the root of bhakti.
GS: The five basic elements which begin with sadhu-sanga and bhagavad-sravana. Sadhu-sanga is defined by Rupa Goswami as associating with devotees who are like-minded, more advanced than you, and affectionate. And bhagavad-sravana, the definition of hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam given by Rupa Gosvami is to hear from advanced devotees. These processes are helpful all the way from sraddha up to prema.
BP: Prema bhakti hoilo tenho punar mukhya anga - right to the top the same principle is there. From the bottom to the top sadhu-sanga is the essence of advancement.
LS: For myself, I've never felt such need in my life to go outside for association. Even Narayana Maharaja, I have a very good relationship with him, but I never felt like going. I think that is the case with many ISKCON devotees. Are we lacking something?
DS: I would make one point: one is lacking if there's a misconception that you don't need sadhana to advance in Krsna consciousness.
PP: Would you say that if one avoided intimate association with devotees like Narayana Maharaja because of institutional considerations, one would be blocking his advancement?
BP: We all feel that it would be unfortunate if such a condition was forced upon a devotee. It would be also against an instruction Prabhupada gave directly to Narayana Maharaja, against the best interest of ISKCON, and against siddhanta.
GS: To come back to the first point about looking outside ISKCON for siksa. When I returned to Bombay, I heard that Narayana Maharaja had lived with us in Bombay on another occasion and had gone every day from Juhu to downtown Bombay for more than a month, sitting all day in a court room to testify in the M. M. De case. In his old age, day after day, only to defend Prabhupada and ISKCON. And when he was again staying with us to have some treatment at Hinduja Hospital, I just did not have that conception that he's "outside ISKCON."
PP: Does anybody have any questions on this or can we go to the next point?
"ISKCON should be broad in its vision and allow its members to associate and receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya."
Perhaps this is already answered.
TKG: Well, there's a mistake here. It says that we feel it is needed to open the door for all devotees to receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. I don't agree with that. Why? Because some of the bona fide, loyal members of the Gaudiya sampradaya are not loyal to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. And one of the specific things which we tested and have seen again and again is that this particular sadhu, Narayana Maharaja, is very loyal to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. That's probably the reason why we did not hesitate to continue visiting him whereas we might have in other cases. In other words, we saw continuous proof that this person was loyal to our guru and institution. And that helped us increase our faith.
BP: It increased our faith both in Prabhupada and in the institution.
LS: I'm just saying, quoting you, Narayana Maharaja is loyal, so he becomes part of ....
GS: No, I don't think we've reached that definition. But I think in the case of Narayana Maharaja, we, who gradually began to associate with him, who have been serving Prabhupada and ISKCON for many years, and who do have loyalty to Prabhupada and ISKCON within us, were especially attracted and enlivened when we saw the same in him. But I wouldn't say that someone is absolutely excluded from giving bona fide instruction if he doesn't have the same sense or service to Prabhupada and ISKCON that Narayana Maharaja has.
TKG: But personally I wouldn't want to hear from him very much.
GS: Yes, I wouldn't either. But I don't think we can make an absolute statement.
BP: This point, which is supposedly ours, says that "ISKCON should be broad in its vision and allow its members to associate and receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya."
TKG: I cannot agree with this. Unless he was loyal to Prabhupada and ISKCON, I would not want to hear from him.
GS: But I would raise another point. To what extent is it the business of the GBC to try to regulate such instruction? The GBC tried to regulate or certify Vaisnava literature through the ISKCON Review Board. This proved problematic because there was question as to how expert the reviewers were to detect apasiddhanta or breach of Vaisnava etiquette. For example, when Hari Sauri's first diary came out, things were published that shouldn't have appeared in terms of Prabhupada's direct instruction and in terms of Vaisnava etiquette. And the book having the official, GBC ISKCON Review Board certificate put us in an awkward position, as much as the GBC was in an awkward position when the official GBC-approved gurus fell down.
So I think it is neither realistic nor practical nor advisable for the GBC to try to take the position of assessing Gaudiya Vaisnavas and certifying that one is good for association and another not.
Srila Prabhupada has given so many instructions about association in the Nectar of Instruction and other places. If devotees have questions about the application of the principles, they can ask their gurus or any senior devotees in whom they have faith. It is really a question whether the GBC wants to start certifying Vaisnavas not under the authority of the GBC and trying to control or stop devotees from meeting them. In the case of the Review Board, even if we did not certify a book, there was no way to stop the devotees from reading it. They ended up reading whatever they wanted, approved or not.
So this is a very critical issue, whether the GBC should even try to certify people not under the GBC's authority and legislate the devotees' association.
TKG: I have a point. 1.3, last line, is false: "Srila Prabhupada gave him specific instructions to help us and we should therefore accept him as a siksa guru for ISKCON devotees."
We are made to say that Narayana Maharaja should officially be accepted as a siksa-guru for ISKCON devotees. We never said that. It's a personal choice. We never suggested that as an institution we accept him as a siksa-guru. We don't even recommend it to individuals, what to speak of the society as a whole.
PP: We quote Hrdayananda Maharaja. He says, "For reasons about which I shall not speculate, HH Narayana Maharaja did not fully surrender to Srila Prabhupada," Would you have any comments about that? And then he says, "We cannot surrender to him as we surrender to Prabhupada, if we are to maintain Srila Prabhupada's real position."
TKG: You mean that leaving his guru's institution would show his surrender to Prabhupada? Is that the implication? Leaving his guru's order would have shown his surrender to Prabhupada?
DS: I think it reflects a concern Giriraj Maharaja previously mentioned, that he's unauthorized because he's not in a diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada.
TKG: [sarcastically] His sin is that he didn't take initiation from Prabhupada. Therefore he should recognize his sin and disqualification and at least give up the institution his Guru Maharaja established and requested him to serve within. He should then join ISKCON. That would please Prabhupada and show his real surrender to Prabhupada. He should have done that instead of maintaining the order of his guru to work for the benefit of his guru's institution and simultaneously help ISKCON, something which his guru didn't ask him to do but which he did because he was surrendered to Prabhupada. He took a double burden.
PP: I've heard that Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was accepted by all the devotees as acarya and there's talk that he spoke that in the future a self-effulgent acarya would appear and that Srila Prabhupada is that self-effulgent acarya and that Narayana Maharaja did not recognize him as such. This is an argument against accepting Narayana Maharaja as a siksa-guru.
TKG: I think he does accept Prabhupada as a self-effulgent acarya, and that's why he devotes so much of his time to ISKCON. Although his time is totally occupied by his own institution's activities and preaching, still he tries to devote one or two hours a day for giving assistance to ISKCON. Why? He recognizes ISKCON as the actual branch of the Caitanya tree that is spreading Krsna consciousness worldwide. He also recognizes Prabhupada as the person whom Caitanya Mahaprabhu has blessed to do this, and he's hoping that by assisting and serving in some way this self-effulgent acarya, he'll get some mercy from him.
RS: Are you in the mood that you are surrendering to Narayana Maharaja? In other words, do you serve his instructions or just receive knowledge from him? Do you believe you're surrendering to him as you surrender to Prabhupada?
TKG: Not in the same way. I'm surrendered to Prabhupada in every single possible way. Narayana Maharaja is not involved in much of my practical service within ISKCON. I go to him to better understand the sastric teachings. And I accept these teachings from him. That's what my surrender entails. And I love him and appreciate him for all the help he's giving me. I find his help extremely beneficial and therefore hold him as very dear to me.
Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja don't compete in my mind. My surrender to Prabhupada is total. It involves every single aspect of my life in every single way.
RS: Are you approaching Narayana Maharaja to surrender to him or do you feel that by approaching him he helps you in your surrender to Prabhupada?
TKG: You should get the definition of siksa-guru.
BP: In Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila.
RS: This is what they are specifically asking.
DS: What is a siksa-guru? I would say he is one who helps you to increase faith in your diksa-guru. I don't think any of us would develop a relationship with Narayana Maharaja if that wasn't the case.
TKG: It brings me closer. I find myself getting even closer to Prabhupada with his help. I don't feel so much that I'm surrendering to two different people.
BP: Then who's the person to whom you're surrendering?
TKG: It's to Prabhupada, and he's helping me.
BP: The spiritual master doesn't say surrender to me, he says surrender to Krsna. He is Krsna's representative. The diksa-guru and siksa-guru are Krsna's representatives. And naturally, as one surrenders to Krsna, one's appreciation of Prabhupada grows more because his realization of Prabhupada's gift increases as the depth of his realization increases.
TKG: That's a better answer.
BP: This question is irksome, because of the way it's put. If we love our father, can we also love our older brother? Or our uncle or mother or child. As if by serving or surrendering or having affection for our uncle or older brother, which is really how I look at Narayana Maharaja, our affection for our father is hindered. Because Narayana Maharaja's instructions increase our Krsna consciousness, his instructions naturally also increase our love for Prabhupada. It's irksome when it appears that there is inherently a disloyalty or duality or contradiction. The Caitanya-caritamrta doesn't explain siksa- and diksa-guru in a competitive way.
TKG: Thank you. This question is unfair, and it practically implies that you can only love your father and can't love your brothers or anyone else.
BP: Many detractors of the current system in ISKCON say the same thing: there's too much attention being paid to the spiritual masters; not enough given to Prabhupada. It's the same thing: affection for one's guru subtracts from affection for Prabhupada. It's the same myopic point of view.
GS: I know from years of experience in Bombay that Srila Prabhupada had many relationships with people outside of the managerial structure of ISKCON. Prabhupada did not consider their relationship with him to be dependent on their subordination to the managerial structure of ISKCON.
?: Just one point of clarification: when we speak of acaryas in our line, like in the Bhagavad-gita we have a list. We see Srila Prabhupada as the most recent acarya in the parampara disciplic succession that we call the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya.
GS: But even Srila Prabhupada said that there may be other acaryas who are not listed. It's the most prominent ones who are listed. One can't say that, for example, because His Holiness Kesava Maharaja doesn't come in our list, in our edition of Bhagavad-gita, that he's not a bona fide acarya, and that Narayana Maharaja should have therefore left his service.
TKG: I wouldn't think that Prabhupada would have appreciated it. That's my assessment. Somebody else could say he should have, but we'd all be speculating. There's another thing you could say in terms of service. You could argue, why didn't Narayana Maharaja do more service to Prabhupada's mission when Prabhupada was present? The fact is that it wasn't as necessary when Prabhupada was present.
BP; Prabhupada personally asked him in the last weeks to help. Bhakti Charu Swami even confirms that in Bengali Prabhupada requested Narayana Maharaja to help his disciples.
PP: Perhaps you can just comment on the opposing position here in terms of siksa-gurus.
TKG: The essence of the point is again based on only one instruction of Prabhupada's: "Don't have anything to do with the Gaudiya Matha. They must not have read Giriraj Maharaja's paper. At least they could have considered his arguments and addressed them. Giriraj Maharaja clearly brought out that Prabhupada's instructions regarding association with the Gaudiya Math were based on time, place, and circumstance. Where there were unfavorable persons and unfavorable instances Prabhupada would say, "Don't associate." And other times, for example, in Visakapatnam, he took me and another 25 devotees and we lived with Puri Maharaja for about a week. If there was any way to tell me not to associate with Puri Maharaja, that wasn't a good way to do it. There were many other instances. He wrote me a letter to go to Bangladesh and work with his Godbrother. He brought Sridhar Maharaja over and had Sridhar Maharaja sit in the seat with him, sleep in his bed while he slept on the floor. He went over a number of times to visit Sridhar Maharaja.
BP: Did Prabhupada actually request Sridhar Maharaja to live in Mayapura at the end?
TKG: Well, I need to find out more about that, but I know he told me specifically that we should invite Puri Maharaja to come with us and preach all over the world.
?: What year was that?
TKG: It was in the early seventies. He told Narayana Maharaja the same thing.
We should see the individual member of the Gaudiya Math's relationship or position or mood towards Prabhupada, ISKCON, its leaders etc. That's how Prabhupada based his statements, and that's what we should do. And it's not an open declaration of war against everyone in the whole Gaudiya institution for the next 10,000 years - until at last they join ISKCON. Do you believe Prabhupada would have ever wanted such a thing? It's just not Prabhupada's mood. He was protecting us when there was real need of protection. Puri Maharaja was never hostile or inimical to Prabhupada; nor was Narayana Maharaja. These negative statements were made against specific persons, and sometimes Prabhupada made sweeping statements. But at other times Prabhupada spoke and acted very, very differently. Including during his final pastimes.
Trying to force us to accept the "do not associate" point as absolute is wrong. Giriraj Maharaja wrote a whole paper on this.
PP: Any other points here?
TKG: We have to deal with facts. Devotees tend to just keep saying, "I know Prabhupada's mood." Well, so do I. You can't use a stick on me and say, "O come on, everyone knows." That's not an answer. There are letters, there are incidents. It can't just be, "O come on, everyone knows that this is really what Prabhupada wanted."
GS: Again we come to the obvious fact that Srila Prabhupada said different things about his Godbrothers. He did write the letter to one disciple that he could accept Sridhar Maharaja as siksa-guru. He wrote another letter in which he said he was going to bring ten disciples from America to study the books of the Gosvamis at Bon Maharaja's institute.
TKG: And Prabhupada had Jayapataka Maharaja and Acyutananda live for one year in Madhava Maharaja's institution.
GS: So we have evidence that Prabhupada said and did different things in different situations. So the real question is one of application. And again the question arises, is it for the GBC to legislate?
PP: The position of your critics is: "One may go to any bona fide source for detailed information but ISKCON devotees should only spiritually surrender to Srila Prabhupada and his disciplic representatives."
This position is taken against what is perceived as your view:
"Just as devotees consult outside authorities on fund raising, printing, etc., one should be permitted to take instruction from spiritual authorities outside of ISKCON."
BP: How about Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura?
PP: That's Srila Prabhupada's disciplic succession. Those are his gurus.
BP: It says disciplic representatives.
PP: Yes. That'll be before.
GS: But what about their disciplic representatives? Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
PP: Next point: "Principle of Association of Sadhus"
"The principle of following the order of the guru is the highest principle of all, and Srila Prabhupada's instruction was to not mix very intimately with his Godbrothers. The very institutional integrity of ISKCON is dependent on following this instruction very rigidly, maintaining Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority directly and through his disciples."
TKG: Institutional laws should follow scriptures, not contradict them. In other words, why should we pass a law which goes against scripture. Is that good for a religious organization to do?
GS: The first duty of the GBC body is to uphold the will of Srila Prabhupada, which in turn represents the will of scripture and parampara. So if we pass resolutions that don't really reflect Srila Prabhupada's instructions, it's not good.
TKG: The same problem comes again. The last line here says, "maintain Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority, directly and through his disciples." May I know what happened to scripture and sadhu? We are now throwing out the most fundamental principle that Prabhupada taught - guru, sadhu, and sastra. Now there's only guru. Or is it that Prabhupada's disciples are the only sadhus? And no mention of scripture. Is this dangerous or not?
LS: Sadhu is anywhere, sadhu means a saintly person.
TKG: [sarcastically] No, it means a saintly person in ISKCON. There's a new definition now.
TKG: "Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority and through his disciples." What about Krsna? That's what it says here.
GS: It suggests Prabhupada is God, the origin of the sampradaya.
TKG: This is obviously the way to make Prabhupada the center of the Centennial - destroy his teachings.
GS: But the Prabhupada Centennial wants to avoid personality cult.
BP: Another point about point 5. I agree there's not a complete parallel between professional help and spiritual help and that the surrender required in both are not completely parallel, but the surrender is not completely unparalleled either. Even when we get knowledge from professionals - and I've see this with devotees who go to professionals - they do surrender to some degree. They adopt their mannerisms, their way of talking, and their teachings. So that is surrender. Surrender is the Vedic principle of getting knowledge - you have to surrender.
GS: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that an intelligent person should follow the actions of empowered personalities when their actions are consistent with their instructions. Here the acaryas comment that intelligent means that one should weigh the situation before carrying out the instructions. And they give the example of Krsna's direct instruction to Arjuna to kill Asvattama, which Arjuna, considering the situation, did not do.
So I think not only in relation to Narayana Maharaja's instructions, but also in relation to the multiplicity of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, we are required to use our intelligence. Otherwise I've come to the situation that we're in now, where someone takes one instruction of Srila Prabhupada. "Do not mix with my Godbrothers," and without considering the situation, without the exercise of intelligence, without seeing the whole range of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, like a fanatic, wants to make a campaign. So that is not intelligent, and that is not how we are supposed to accept the instructions of authorities. Intelligence is required to reconcile all of Prabhupada's different instructions in different situations and the instructions of other acaryas as well.
BVPM: On the principle of the siksa-guru, we also have to understand that there are different levels. So many times we just want to say the siksa-guru is all or nothing, but Bhaktivinoda Thakura points out that we have three levels of siksa-gurus: we're dealing with the adi-guru, the Founder-acarya, who everyone has a relationship with, and the diksa-guru and siksa-gurus who specifically are dear to us and inspire us in serving the mission of the adi-guru, the Founder-acarya. Then there are the senior Vaisnavas, the teachers. They also are siksa-gurus.
So just because someone may come to the level of teaching us in spiritual subject matter, that doesn't mean that it inhibits our relationships with our own guru. Because there are different levels of gurus.
BP: Also in the 11th Canto, so many siksa-gurus are accepted. Bees, ants, birds, prostitutes - but it doesn't mean that we surrender to them completely. But we take their instructions.
TKG: Things Prabhupada told me regarding ISKCON I do. Anything Narayana Maharaja may ever comment about ISKCON, I may think if it's valid or not based on whatever I've learned from Prabhupada.
BP: He says, "You know better than I how to manage ISKCON."
LS: Soon there will no longer be any senior Gaudiya Vaisnavas on the planet. Only a few more left, and as they also depart, then who are we left with? What I've understood from devotees who are going to Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja is that, while these men are on the planet, a lot of deeper questions that Prabhupada didn't specifically deal with could be answered and be permanently on record within our ISKCON movement.
Then there will be no need to go outside ISKCON. We'll then be self-sufficient.
PP: I'm not sure if it's properly covered later on, but one of the points I haven't heard addressed is Prabhupada's statements that, if they speak one word different than me, there will then be chaos.
TKG: Even if it's philosophical, if Narayana Maharaja says something I see as different from Prabhupada - then it must be reconciled. Prabhupada's words are the standard. It's always been like that with Maharaja. It's amazing. He'll say something, like on this issue of the jiva, and he'll insist there's no way your Guru Maharaja and I can differ on this. We can't differ. Even in philosophy he has to show the reconciliation because he knows our faith is in Prabhupada. As Prabhupada's disciples we're bound to follow Prabhupada. And Narayana Maharaja, as a teacher, has to show us how to reconcile what our acarya and guru teach. One cannot teach something different. Otherwise faith will be broken and all will be lost. He's so much more careful than ISKCON devotees are about this.
Also, does it only mean that one word changed from the Gaudiya Math will cause havoc? Prabhupada was furious when he saw what the Sanskrit editors sometimes did to his books. He became so upset. He said their little bit of intelligence, their little bit of Sanskrit knowledge, could spoil everything. So this point about "changing one word" doesn't apply only to the Gaudiya Math, it applies to every one of us. If I start changing Prabhupada's teachings, it's going to disturb the whole group of people who listen to me. Because Narayana Maharaja is more advanced, he's more aware of the necessity of us maintaining faith in Prabhupada, so he will never say anything different. For anything that could appear different, he says, "What does your Guru Maharaja teach on this point?" Before he even opens his mouth on it - "What does your Guru Maharaja teach?" Because he cannot contradict the guru. If he does, the disciples will immediately go. In his mind, Prabhupada is our guru. It's very, very clear in his mind, and it's clear in our mind.
BP: I sit on a chair when I talk to him. Generally he sits on the bed and I sit on a chair next to him.
TKG: He's our teacher.
GS: I'd like to comment on this oft-quoted statement. I looked up the original quote in Prabhupada lilamrta: "If any Godbrother says even one word different from what I'm saying, there will be great confusion among you." I believe that our ability to be confused depends on our lack of spiritual knowledge. Even with Prabhupada we could become confused. When he explained initiation and said, "Initiation means you accept me like God," there was great confusion. To the extent that we don't really understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and the parampara, we can get confused, and not only if the Godbrothers say something different. What Prabhupada says in one place may also be different from what Prabhupada says in another place! It can create great confusion, and there has been great confusion in the movement many times. The best protection against confusion is clear philosophical understanding.
If we are so afraid of becoming confused we will never be able to deal with anyone who has anything to say about spiritual or even material life. We'll have to remain completely insulated because we're afraid we will become confused. If we're going to act as preachers it's our duty to be deeply knowledgeable in the scriptures and Prabhupada's teachings so we can interact with others without becoming confused.
LS: I know devotees who go to ISKCON Kumbha Mela and get confused.
GS: Yes. Lower-level devotees. We should save ourselves from becoming confused by becoming higher-level devotees and understanding the philosophy better. We should become convinced.
BP: And please put that quote that Srila Prabhupada spoke in 1967 in the perspective of 1967: Haight-Ashbury, no books, new devotees, and like-minded Westerners.
PP: Can you comment on this point in 1.7:
"Just as there may be a tendency towards fanaticism in ISKCON devotees, there is also a tendency towards sahajiya. If the principle of keeping within ISKCON for spiritual guidance is diluted then many devotees may fall victim to various kinds of apa-sampradaya"?
PP: Some people are very fanatical about keeping within ISKCON. They associate going outside to include going outside to anyone, the babajis in Radha-kunda and so on. In other words, those who are very fanatical about staying within the institution tend to lump in any sort of ....
GS: How do you know there are no sahajiyas in ISKCON? You don't remember Jayatirtha?
PP: Yes, of course.
TKG: You know what the rumor is? That Narayana Maharaja was playing on his flute and we were wearing sarees. People spread this rumor all over this place. Do you know that this was talked about by everyone and heard by everyone? Did anybody stop them from doing that? Why isn't the GBC incensed by that?
I have a comment about the next statement:
"This may include consciously choosing to meditate on a particular rasa, studying books or sections of books dealing specifically with that rasa, modifying one's attendance at the temple program, choosing services within ISKCON which facilitate the proper mood, etc. "
Who says that we are doing this? This is another misstatement. I've never heard of anyone choosing services within ISKCON which facilitate the proper mood of one's rasa.
PP: This is a speculation based on the observation of the activities of devotees within this group.
TKG: Can you tell us about that? Can you give me one example of devotees choosing services to facilitate their rasa. Can you give me one example?
PP: We've heard that Giriraj Maharaja perhaps is giving up GBC responsibilities in certain areas.
TKG: And how does it facilitate his particular rasa?
?: A mood, not the particular rasa.
PP: This is all related to the gopi-bhava club idea.
TKG: I must have a chivalrous rasa with Krsna and that's why I fight all day.
DS: As for the gopi-bhava club, I don't think we ever meet. This is the first time this month we've met.
TKG: Attendance at the program.
PP: Because they observe - this is what we were hearing - that since coming to Vrindavan Giriraj Maharaja doesn't come to the morning program, doesn't attend the class. So there's speculation...
GS: I have been sick with kidney stones and bronchitis. Still I gave my class on Nectar of Instruction every afternoon. But I cannot take the cold air in the morning.
DS: Why does this refer only to us? So many ISKCON leaders and senior devotees don't attend. It's not a question of associating with Narayana Maharaja.
PP: One of the concerns I've heard is related to ISKCON devotees who are pursuing sadhana strictly according to the standard ISKCON program, morning program, preaching activities, etc. They are feeling that their process is being called into doubt, that they're missing out on something, and that when they are ready they can pursue raga-marga.
BP: What are they afraid of? That preaching and going to the morning program is low-class and that when they become more advanced the symptom is that they won't go to the morning program anymore and....
PP: The concern I've heard is that there is a de-emphasis on the standard of just carrying on the mission. "If one simply focuses one's energy on carrying on the mission and follows the practical sadhana etc., then whatever is needed will be adjusted." There's no need for any conscious effort to pursue the raga-marga.
TKG: What is raga-marga? It's also sadhana. I think that they have to read the first paper Giriraj Maharaja wrote about raganuga-sadhana-bhakti in "Following in the Footsteps."
GS: It says in Srimad Bhagavatam that by serving the pure devotees who are free from vice, a great service is done. And by such service one develops an affinity for the messages of Vasudeva. By serving the mission, by serving the guru - Prabhupada explains in the purport - one develops the qualities of the guru and the principal quality is attraction for hearing and chanting about Krsna. If we're really serving the mission, the result should be that we develop taste for hearing and chanting.
So that's the first point. Now if one develops taste, then naturally he'll hear and chant more, which is our main duty, and one will become more and more qualified....
BP: What's the recommendation? They say it should come automatically, that you shouldn't consciously endeavor. What happens if something does come automatically? What are you supposed to do? What do you do if something comes automatically by the mercy of Prabhupada? Should the thing that has come automatically then be neglected? If one does, by the mercy of guru and Krsna, get a taste for hearing and chanting, what does one do then?
TKG: Prabhupada told me in Bombay, "Actually our only business is to sit in Mayapura and chant 24 hours per day. Actually we have nothing else to do. That is the goal of this movement." Then he said, "But unfortunately you have no taste. Therefore I have to engage you and the others in building so many temples." In 1970, August or so, Prabhupada told me that.
PP: Maybe one of you would like to address this criticism against devotees' efforts to hear and chant about the more intimate activities of the Lord and His consorts. There's a comparison made between the activities today and the gopi-bhava club of 1975. What is the difference?
BP: First of all let's see what they did, the so-called gopi-bhava club. What were their activities? Then we can compare.
TKG: They used to get together, men and women, and they would read only from exclusive sections of Prabhupada's books which are about Radha-Krsna lila.
BP: Do we get together, all men and women, and read about exclusive sections of anything? Prabhupada's books or any other books?
TKG: Bhurijana teaches Bhagavad-gita. Giriraj Maharaja teaches Nectar of Devotion, Nectar of Instruction, and some Caitanya-caritamrta, I've taught NOD, Brahma-samhita. But there's another difference. What was the main alarming factor that disturbed Prabhupada?
BP: . Were you with Prabhupada then?
TKG: Yes, for the whole discussion. What was the thing that disturbed Prabhupada most?
GS: The influence of the babajis at Radha-kunda.
TKG: It was poison coming from the babajis at Radha-kunda.
But this issue is our visiting Narayana Maharaja. Is there a similarity between Narayana Maharaja and the babajis at Radha-kunda? It would be interesting for the ISKCON devotees to make an examination of Narayana Maharaja's views about the Radha-kunda babajis. I don't think it would be possible to find anyone in ISKCON who has such a critical view of the babajis at Radha-kunda as Narayana Maharaja.
I also don't think that any of us would be able to defeat the arguments of the babajis at Radha-kunda as Narayana Maharaja does. Some of the best ISKCON devotees could get bewildered if they ever went into their midst. It's happened. Yet Narayana Maharaja has the capacity to protect our siddhanta by his powerful scholarship and his historical knowledge of our movement.
BP: Yes, that's specifically why I started going to him. So many philosophies float around Vrindavan because we are surrounded by babajis. So I started going to ask him what is the bhakti-siddhanta of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's line.
And now it is such a great loss. I cannot do that. It's truly a great loss. And not only on babaji issues. When Maharaja leaves there's not going to be anybody left. And if you want to see apasampradaya enter, you'll see it enter then. Because few will be here to detect and defend.
And I'm not encouraged to question him anymore. A great loss.
TKG: There's another difference. Then it was 1975. Now it's 1995. The devotees who were doing this had joined about one year, two years, three years prior. Now we're not getting into the same thing, exclusively reading more intimate topics. I have very little time to read anything. Second, we're not hearing from the babajis at Radha-kunda, and third, most of us have been devotees for more than 25 years.
That raises the point of some people, "Don't you think that your interest in the subject is premature?" Now I'm going to be fifty. So at what age will it be appropriate? First of all, is it by age that you can judge when someone is ready? But even from age point of view, I might have another 10 or 15 years by nature's arrangement. So how do you determine when one is ready by age? Is it only by the age of your body or the date of your initiation? By the date of initiation, it's been 27 or 26 years. I am nearly fifty years of age. And what about Indradyumna Maharaja's disciple Vraja Lila, who left her body recently here in Vrindavan? She was only 19. Was it the right time for her to take interest in these topics? Should we have told her, "Mataji, it's only been three years since you've been initiated and you're only nineteen. Wait for your next life." Is that our philosophy?
So these arguments about immaturity and the similarity between us and the gopi-bhava club are neither accurate nor parallel. They are unfair.
BP: I'd like to hear what they mean by "Prabhupada criticized ISKCON devotees for making extraneous efforts to learn raga-marg." What do they mean by extraneous efforts?
PP: This was directly in reference to the gopi-bhava club.
TKG: I don't know if they knew what raga-marga was.
BVPM: Another major difference is that the devotees here who have taken an interest in this continue to preach. Their preaching is actually expanding because as one advances, naturally the preaching mood and compassion come.
And we see that these devotees are preaching and they're are able to inspire many devotees. They are very strong preaching forces within our movement. I don't see a decrease in their preaching since they've started. In fact, I've seen a great increase.
TKG: It's been seven years since we started visiting Narayana Maharaja and taking instruction from him. Have you seen in those seven years signs of spiritual or moral deviation or decrease in preaching? What is the proof of the dangers?
Now if you say the dangers are not for you but for those who follow you, we'll get into that later. But it wasn't for the followers of the people in the gopi-bhava club that Prabhupada stopped it. It was for they themselves!
You've asked what the differences are between us and the gopi-bhava club so we're giving them to you.
GS. You are spending more time in Vrindavan.
TKG: Prabhupada told me that my goal should be to retire and do nothing but chant the holy name in Vrindavan and Mayapura. That's an order I got from Prabhupada in 1970. This is our goal, he said, but you're not ready. So now, instead of spending one month, a month and a half between Mayapura and Vrindavan, I might spend three. After 26 years, if I've gone from one and a half to three months, is it a bad sign? You know what I do when I come here for the other extra month and a half? I train and teach my disciples. The job of a guru is to train his disciples. I deal with about a hundred disciples over that month and a half when I come here. They take my classes; they go with me on parikrama; I meet with them. I do what a guru is supposed to do.
I come and I write books also and study and teach in the VIHE. I get a chance to associate intimately with my Godbrothers. Now you mean I should only come during the time of the Mayapura-Vrindavan festival?
BP: I would also, in that regard, like to bring up the point that you are fifty-years-old and you have been in the movement for 28 years. Who should regulate how much time you need in Vrindavan? After all, you still responsibly do your duties. Should we also attempt to regulate the schedules of the other senior devotees as well? This one travels too much. This one doesn't read enough. This one only collects money.
And, it's not that the rest of the year you take it easy. You preach in China and Texas.
TKG: Some of the toughest preaching fields in the world. If I don't come here and get some juice - it's dry in China and Texas - there's only cactus growing there. They are tough fields.
BVPM: Also Srila Prabhupada established the Vrindavan and Mayapura centres for the devotees coming from the West so that they could revive or recharge their batteries. This is where the energy is, and from here we go out. He especially wanted Vrindavan to be an educational centre. The American House. He wanted devotees to come here and get educated. Then one goes out for preaching with more vigor. And we see that every time they go out the preaching expands; it's not decreasing.
GS: Maybe something can be said about that Govardhana project...
TKG: We made a statement on GBC Com. It says, "As I already explained in my Vyasa-puja offering this year, in his last days, Srila Prabhupada expressed a strong desire to be taken to Govardhana. Giriraj Swami and I purchased the Govardhana property to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's desire. Although all the funds have come from us, the property stands in the name of ISKCON. We have taken full financial and managerial responsibility for the development and maintenance of the project only as a service to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON, in conjunction with ISKCON-Vrindavan. And we are working to complete the renovations in time to offer the project to Srila Prabhupada and his followers for Srila Prabhupada's Centennial."
PP: There's a specific question about the involvement of some matajis. There seems a sort of gopi-bhava club problem with them. It seems to be more related to the ladies.
BP: You mean they're wearing sarees?
PP: They can address people's concern that they have a sort of clickish type of thing. That they meet together.
And we should speak about Narayana Maharaja and specific comments made at Visvarupa Mahotsava which stated that Narayana Maharaja was as good as Prabhupada.
DS: The matajis working in the Gurukula or who worked in the Gurukula, at least those ladies - they don't talk to anybody about Narayana Maharaja.
GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names.
BP: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing.
GS: Regarding the pet names, I'd like to explain my understanding. He gave them the pet names. They didn't ask for new names. The implication of the critics is that the new names indicate some sort of gross or subtle initiation. I think that's the real question. He gave them the names; I don't think we can question that. I think the real question is how they understand it and how they perceive it.
PP: The criticism I heard was Jadurani to Syamarani, meaning from Dwaraka-lila to Vrindavan.
?: So there are two parts to it. One is the conception that there is some sort of reinitiation, not reinitiation but additional initiation, taking place, some sort of spiritual bond.
BP: And also a question about disloyalty regarding the name Prabhupada gave them.
[Jadurani dasi, Karta dasi, and Vinod Yani dasi enter.]
Karta dasi (K): May I say something? I was the first person to whom he gave a pet name. It was due to a very simple thing. My name Karta means doer or creator. It is a masculine name. When I first came to Narayana Maharaja years ago and he asked me what my name was, I said Karta. It was interesting for him to hear this name and he laughed and said humorously, "Swami Maharaja had so many disciples that he ran out of names. I would like to call you by another name."
It wasn't anything. We weren't meeting him. We didn't have a relationship. It wasn't really based on anything. It was just because it's funny for him, who is familiar with the language, to call me, "Doer." Like, "Doer, can you come here?" Or, Creator, come and see me."
It was a light meeting, kind of natural. We were not establishing our relationship based on something that I understand about him in the spiritual realm or anything. So he said, in a rather light way, that he will call me another name.
It wasn't until about a year later that he said, "You know, I think I'll call you like this." So he said my name and then, "Will people understand?" And I said, "It will be only for us. Why should it be for anybody else? It's not relevant to anybody else." So that's what happened. It was light.
Of course, our relationship became close, so it might be taken in another way. But it's only an affectionate way of addressing. He actually said, "Gaura Priya Karta." So it's not even replacing. Also, it means a relationship. Like Krsna has many relationships with different devotees. He's Yasoda-nandana, Devaki-nandana, Nanada-nandana, according to the relationship He has with His devotees. In the same way I see it like, well, if you have a siksa-guru (and I take him as siksa-guru), I have a certain way of relating to him. It wasn't something thought up, or an imposition, or adding anything. It was just natural.
TKG: There is another point. Many among those who visit him have names which apparently have nothing to do with Vrindavan-lila. Was that the issue? Did you in this way get your "service name"?
K: Of course not.
BP: I would like to know. How many of the people who go and see him has he given names to?
K: As far as I know, only Jadurani and me.
TKG: After 6 years, all this commotion is about Narayana Maharaja giving pet names to two matajis. Unbelievable!
BP: I just want to add one little thing. At least for myself when I see Karta or Jadurani, I call them Karta or Jadurani.
PP: Do you have anything to say, Jadurani?
Jadurani: You all know I did the painting of Radha-Syamasundara. Sometimes people give nicknames to others on the basis of something done. Like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had one sannyasi who had some name, Gaura Narayana, or some name with Gaura, and he renamed him Badri Narayana because he visited Badrinath. It was a temporary name in relation to a particular situation.
So in relation to the painting, he gave me a name because I was serving Radha-Syamasundara or Radha-Syama. Radharani is Syamarani, the beloved of Krsna. So that service got me the nickname. Most of the times he calls me Jadurani and sometimes he calls me Syamarani.
Prabhupada also had a nickname for me, which was Sadhurani. Prabhupada told me, back in the late sixties, at 26th 2nd Avenue, that "So many of my Godbrothers nicknamed each other different names." It's quite common. So it is not unstandard. Also, Prabhupada's name, which he was given by his diksa-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, was Abhay Caranaravinda, and then his Godbrothers gave him another name, Bhaktivedanta, which was further established at the time of his sannyasa initiation.
So it's not uncommon in our line, whether it's a nickname or a real name. It has nothing to do with reinitiation or disloyalty to one's diksa-guru.
Also on two occasions, one in New Jersey, when Prabhupada was convalescing from that heart attack, and on one other occasion, Prabhupada told me, "When you go back to Godhead, you'll be a servant of Radharani." I did not then have the interest to inquire further. But I understand that Prabhupada wants me to go back to Godhead in Vrindavan. And Narayana Maharaja told me that your Prabhupada wants you to go not to Dvaraka, but to Vrindavan. So it's all in connection with Srila Prabhupada.
We're talking in the Prabhupada Centennial about Prabhupada consciousness and being more in tune with Prabhupada. Perhaps not everything that we do now in service or in our zones or in relation to disciples has been written to us in a letter from Srila Prabhupada or in his books. But we may nevertheless feel that Prabhupada is inspiring us to act. When we give Bhagavatam class we often pray. "Please give me the words so I may give this class." So my heartfelt conviction is that Prabhupada instructed me to go to Narayana Maharaja. And if Narayana Maharaja did give me a nickname or try to sway me to Vrindavan, it is coming from none other than Srila Prabhupada. How is it being disloyal? I never met anybody who has given me so much love and faith and appreciation and heartfelt feeling for Srila Prabhupada as Srila Narayana Maharaja.
PP: Two other points. During the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony Vinod Vani mataji spoke with some feeling. And I don't know, but the impression was one of....
GS: TKG and I put a statement on GBC Com that we spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava specifically to satisfy Narayana Maharaja and his followers because of the offense committed on Balarama's Appearance Day. Although we tried our best, people are still talking about what happened. They haven't forgotten. So we explained that we weren't defying the GBC body or desiring that people accept Narayana Maharaja as siksa-guru or as the acarya of ISKCON. We were just speaking to try and mitigate the offense on Balarama's Appearance day.
[To Vinod Vani]
BP: How about the canvassing question? There's been complaints that Karta and Jadurani canvas or have canvassed for people to go to Narayana Maharaja.
TKG: I'll give an example. Lokanath Swami has a disciple named Madhavi. So Maharaja is feeling that perhaps she was canvassed and now she's involved with Narayana Maharaja.
K: I can speak because Madhavi is a very good friend of mine. She is a particular kind of person. Lokanath Maharaja probably knows very well. When I first met her, three, four years ago, she was very attracted to go to babajis.
DS: She once told me she wanted to build a house in Radha-kunda, under some babaji. I stopped her.
K: She came to me asking questions about Deity worship because I have Govardhana silas and she wanted to know about Govardhana sila. This is the way she approached me. Then she started saying things which made me realize she was mixed up. She didn't know very much what she was doing and she had this intense attraction for babajis, for going in a different direction. So I preached to her through the years. And now she has no intentions to go to the babajis. She now wants to serve her Guru Maharaja. She is very attached to her Guru Maharaja and very concerned to serve him properly, so he is happy with her.
She's actually never had any direct connection with Srila Narayana Maharaja except when the whole temple went. And none of us took her. She knows what's going on and she has asked and she respects. But she prefers to remain aloof. So she's not been canvassed about it; she's actually been saved from a kind of contamination about babajis.
I joke with her. I say, Don't go away from this sampradaya. Her guru also speaks to her. She's actually doing very well now.
LS: I've only asked about her going out and preaching and distributing books - she doesn't want to go outside Vraja.
K: She's got that idea. But mainly because she's physically exhausted. She's forty. She told me she loves parikrama but she's finding even that difficult to do physically.
TKG: So it could be a physical problem.
K: Yes it is, mainly. She's got some kidney problem right now that she's dealing with and it's affecting her.
DS: Also she's an unprotected widow. Her husband died.
PP: So as far as this complaint or rumor that there's some canvassing, and that every lady that comes to Vrindavan is talked to and if they don't...
TKG: Yes, they are being talked to - by Nandalal, who "preaches" against us.
K: I actually have a long-standing experience because I was in L.A. when the whole Sridhar Maharaja thing was going on. I saw everything that happened and how they dealt with it. It was very unfortunate the way they dealt with it because it could have been dealt with in a better way that could have avoided some problems. So I have been purposely careful not to take anybody there personally. I'm speaking for myself. And whoever goes there goes because Srila Narayana Maharaja is a very famous and attractive person. Especially now, because there's so much controversy, people are attracted to go, even more than before.
[End of morning session]
Now Vinod Vani's name wasn't attached to our statement and we never really spoke to her about it. I guess the basic question is, "Are you defying the GBC body or do you think that Narayana Maharaja should be the acarya of ISKCON, or that ISKCON devotees should come to him?" What was basically in your mind when you spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava?
PP: [To Giriraj Swami] People are taking your statements to indicate that you and others who are associating with Narayana Maharaja view Narayana Maharaja as being on the same level as Srila Prabhupada, as if there is no difference. They think the logical next conclusion is that he will be the next acarya or he will become the acarya of ISKCON. Thus we should all surrender to him. These perception are drawn from your statements.
GS: The question itself involves so many misconceptions. Any genuine disciple of any ISKCON guru would not speak differently about his own spiritual master. He must see some oneness between his spiritual master and Srila Prabhupada. Otherwise, on what other basis does the disciple accept him as spiritual master?
We've already discussed this point. We accept Narayana Maharaja as a siksa-guru, and if there is no oneness between Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada then what business do we have hearing from him or associating with him? Both are coming in the line of Rupa Gosvami. Without oneness between Srila Prabhupada and Rupa Gosvami and between Narayana Maharaja and Rupa Gosvami, what is the basis of our connection?
If you don't accept that one may accept another as a siksa-guru, that's something else. We should then argue sastra. If we do accept that one can accept a siksa-guru, then we are allowed to see him as one with the diksa-guru. The siksa-guru has got to be in harmony with the diksa-guru. There must be oneness.
Vinod Vani dasi (VV): You have to understand that our relationship with Maharaja is very intimate and more on a heart level. It's not institutional. So there's no way in the world that we consider him like the Founder-acarya of ISKCON or that he should be the next guru. He's not part of our organization nor does he want to be. Our relationship with him is personal.
I had no intention of speaking on Visvarupa Mahotsava. But as soon as I got to the matha he called me and said, "You are speaking today." I thought it was a joke. I said, "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." So I was on the spot. I had to do it because I accept him as siksa-guru and he was asking me to speak. There was no way out.
So I simply prayed. Maharaja knows me. He knows that when I speak I speak from my heart and it's not prepared or detached. So I simply spoke from my heart. And if anyone had seen it properly he would have seen that I was speaking affectionately, not managerially.
I first spoke about a verse of Kavi Karnapura. I was speaking about the sense in which I see Srila Narayana Maharaja as the same as Prabhupada. Narayana Maharaja's instructions seem to me like a sequel. Srila Prabhupada has given us everything and Srila Narayana Maharaja takes those instructions and explains them and implements them and pushes us on in the same direction.
But I know that it is sensitive. I've been challenged. One of my Godsisters called me a prostitute, living in one temple initiated by one swami and serving and loving another. How am I supposed to answer this? I have siksa-gurus within ISKCON also. I have Tamal Krsna Maharaja and Giriraj Maharaja. Does this mean I am a prostitute, disloyal to Srila Prabhupada because I also take instruction from my Godbrothers? Of course not. If someone has relevant instruction for me that helps me to improve my service to Srila Prabhupada, I take that to be valuable. And if that person comes in the line of Srila Prabhupada and has great love for Srila Prabhupada, then I want that person's association. I never ever think on an organizational level in terms of the next acarya or anything.
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5 November 1994 Part 2: Afternoon Session
BP: Here's a question from one objection to what we are doing: "Although there are recommendations in Srila Prabhupada's books to study books other than his, this can be done within authorized processes, without taking spiritual shelter outside ISKCON."
What is the meaning of "within authorized process." Do you know their intention?
PP: I think that the concern is that there are devotees in our movement who are authorized to study various scriptures for the purpose of translations. Then these devotees would be teaching those things within our different teaching institutions....
TKG: No, no, no. Because somebody can translate doesn't mean that he's necessarily authorized to comment or teach. Translation is not the same as commenting or teaching.
PP: Translation involves studying, so that person...
TKG: As of now, no one's been authorized. Who authorizes that someone studies a book? The GBC? Do you know what this sounds like? This is what went on in the Middle Ages, the Catholic church. Are we going to be that much of a police state? And who's to decide who's qualified to study?
BP: The point here may be that if you should study all ISKCON books within ISKCON you don't have to go outside to study. But what happens if those who are teaching Prabhupada's books have questions that other devotees can't answer? That's what happened to me.
BVPM: In the Deity worship book, we went to probably nine major pandits in different sampradayas all over India to sit with them. Sometimes it took weeks or months to get the information that would answer the point. It's one thing to say, now you should do this. But to understand why you should do this - so it becomes more than just ritual - we had to go deeply into it and that's why we approached people who are actual authorities, who knew why they were doing things - not just doing for the sake of ritual.
PP: Deity worship on the level that you're describing is detailed. It is for a specific segment of devotees. Not all devotees have to learn all of these things in order to...
BVPM: Factually if you look at it, the Pancaratra is our life style: how we dress and put our tilaka, how we serve and eat. This is all Deity worship. We're all supposed to live a brahminical life style.
PP: It's important for you to say whether or not one can get all spiritual knowledge required for perfection in spiritual life simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books.
GS: First I want to ask: Can't you get everything from chanting the maha-mantra? Then why do you read books? Were the four slokas of the Bhagavatam incomplete? Why do you need 18,000? Were the 18,000 incomplete? Then why do you need commentaries? We're discussing a subject that is unlimited. Unlimited numbers of people can say unlimited number of things to enhance our appreciation.
"Preaching activities are external, raga-marga is internal. The internal activities are always higher."
TKG: First of all the paper says that we say that preaching activities are external. External doesn't mean material, inferior or unimportant. The terms external and internal come from the section of Caitanya-caritamrta that explains the reasons for Lord Caitanya's descent. It explains that there is an external reason and an internal reason.
The external reason is to propagate the sankirtana movement. Does it mean it's a material reason? Or unimportant? Or superficial? And the internal reason is to experience radha-bhava and teach the world about the mood of following in Srimati Radharani's footsteps. These are explained in the Caitanya-caritamrta as the external and internal reasons for Lord Caitanya's descent.
So that is the implication of "preaching is external." It doesn't mean it's material. When someone says something is external it doesn't mean the sankirtana movement is a material process. It is fully spiritual. We have to understand this point when we talk about preaching and use the term external.
GS: I wanted to quote one verse which I think whoever compiled the paper has read and perhaps misunderstood. Seva sadhaka rupena sidha rupena catra hi. One should follow and serve the residents of Vrindavan as a sadhaka and as a sidha. In that verse, Srila Prabhupada, in Caitanya-caritamrta, uses the words internal and external.
The actual explanation is that Rupa Gosvami is also a resident of Vrindavan. So as a sadhaka we follow him externally as he used to chant the holy name, offer obeisances, study, write books, do parikrama and so on. But internally as a siddha he is Rupa Manjari. So one follows both moods in raganuga-bhakti, but only when one is qualified.
So this false statement that the internal is higher than the external, implying that as one becomes more advanced he'll pay more and more attention to the internal and neglect the external and thus cause the preaching mission to fail is wrong. In fact the instruction of Rupa Gosvami just quoted defines the difference between real rupanugas and sahajiyas. Real rupanugas follow both internally and externally.
BP: And if one's internal Krsna consciousness is deep, one's preaching will also become more potent.
TKG: And where is the proof that devotees who visit Narayana Maharaja neglect their preaching? Where is the proof? This statement here says, "Since there is an apparent stress on internal raganuga activity over preaching, the practical result of senior devotees associating with Narayana Maharaja is that many other devotees are not being properly encouraged to engage in active preaching work." Can you show me some examples, please?
BP: It is so insulting.
TKG: Where are the examples? I want to see the examples. For example, when I taught "The Nectarean Glories of Vrindavana" at the VIHE - I think Bhakti-Caitanya Maharaja was present - Prthu Prabhu was regularly attending. Why? Because he was eager to hear me glorify preaching, which I did without fail in every single class. I was explaining again and again that our qualification for being in Vrindavan is that we are preaching. None of us, by example or words, discourages the preaching movement. And yet this is one of the things being said about us. Where is the proof?
LS: One question is raised: You say that preaching is going strong in your zone, more books are distributed, temples are being renovated, constructed. But one devotee said you could have done ten times or twenty times as much if you were...
TKG: Let someone who is doing ten or twenty times more than me tell me how.
BP: Well, if they stopped eating they could preach more. Stop all eating and sleeping. Then the time for preaching will increase. How can it possibly decrease the preaching if devotees increase their Krsna consciousness? It sounds so absurd. Then we should make sure all devotees remain neophytes.
DS: Where is the example of someone else? That's the thing. Prabhupada says, you do what they are doing and then you speak. Otherwise it is easy to say anything.
TKG: I am out in the preaching field eight to nine months of the year, and when I come here I am constantly writing or preaching. What is it they think I should do more?
BP: Sometimes Giriraj Maharaja is not spending time in Bombay. He is spending all his time in Vrindavan.
GS: I also have service in Vrindavana. But I wanted to speak on TKG's behalf.
TKG. What am I doing that's preventing me from doing ten times more? What am I doing that's stopping me from doing more preaching?
LS: Spending more time.
GS: You mean the one and a half months he is ....
BP: Sometimes three or four months. But Prabhupada also came back so many times to Vrindavan and Mayapura. Because this is the inspiration of the devotees. These dhamas give strength so that one may go out and preach.
TKG. This is the blessing I got from serving Prabhupada in his last year and not asking anything from him. He showed me how to live in Vrindavan.
GS: The same could be said about everyone. Everyone could be doing ten times more.
TKG: If he wasn't sick he could do so much more than he is doing. He shouldn't get sick. He is doing so much already, but if he didn't get sick, can you imagine what he could do? Is that a fair criticism? That's ridiculous.
BP: What I say is that before our eyes we have TKG, a fifty-year-old man. To carry on in his preaching and to get strength and inspiration in his preaching, which by the way, is in difficult fields-China, Hong Kong, and Texas-he wants to spend some time in Vrindavan. He doesn't neglect his duties. So who should regulate him? He is fifty-years-old. He is not twenty-years-old. Not seventeen-years-old. Who should tell him? If Vrindavana is his inspiration, his life for preaching, who should tell him he should change his inspiration so that he can increase his preaching?
BVPM: As he mentioned before, he is also training disciples when he is here. There is also that aspect. It's not just the preacher in the field distributing books who is the only preacher. As your disciples advance and ask questions, you have to give time to them. And you have to study yourself so you can answer their questions.
BP: If you don't study, when disciples ask questions you won't know the answers. They'll think that Guru Maharaja doesn't know anything. Who will they ask? Then we'll complain that devotees are going outside ISKCON for answers. We want ISKCON devotees to know everything, but we don't want to give them time to study. Then everyone just becomes active foolish.
One spiritual master and old devotee and friend told me that when disciples ask questions on Prabhupada's books that he doesn't know the answer to, he tells them to meditate upon it and when you are ready Prabhupada will answer you from within your heart. Where does the sastra say that is our process? We are supposed to study and hear from devotees. That's parampara. And anyway, why doesn't the spiritual master first meditate and receive the answer and then just tell the disciple?
GS: When I was speaking with HH Sridhar Swami about why I associate with Narayana Maharaja, he immediately understood - within a management paradigm - that I was talking about increasing performance capability as opposed to performance. He said that a big problem in ISKCON is that everyone is so worried about performance that they don't pay enough attention to increasing performance capability.
BP: A quadrant four activity.
PP: Quandrant three. (Laughter)
BP: People often come here, dying and dry, to get recharged. Because we attempt to study, and because we teach, devotees become so enlivened with VIHE. Because the teachers have studied the devotee feel like they are getting nectar and then they go out and preach.
PP: Can we move on?
"Srila Prabhupada's work was incomplete. He established the foundation but there is still a grand "temple" extending into the highest realms of raga-bhakti which must be established by his disciples. HH Narayana Maharaja can assist us in this endeavor."
TKG: This next supposed viewpoint of ours says that we say Srila Prabhupada's work was incomplete. Nonsense. He said, I gave the framework.
GS. The framework means from top to bottom.
TKG: Who said this?
PP: It comes from the transcript of the Visvarupa Mahotsava, Narayana Maharaja's statements.
GS: Anyway, if devotees really do want to understand Narayana Maharaja, they should speak to us, because we know him better, we have associated with him more. If they really want to understand what he thinks about Prabhupada, I think they can probably understand better from us than by reading one lecture transcript in isolation.
?: Why don't you explain what it means....
GS: Anyway, without reference to the transcript, I would say that he agrees that Srila Prabhupada has given us everything and that everything is in Prabhupada's books. But more can be said. And by discussing the other works of the Gosvamis, and even discussing the same books that Prabhupada translated, more comes out of them. It's the sastric process. Srimad-bhagavatarthanam asvado rasakaih saha: one should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of devotees. That is why Srila Prabhupada gave us the morning class and the evening class, because he said we get more out of discussion than by reading alone.
PP: I don't have the transcript with me, the exact quotes, but here's something. It says that "Swamiji has at first prepared the ground by preaching hari-nama and Bhagavad-gita. So very important work. Without this he couldn't have given these things. So he has done this task, and it was so necessary for all the world. But he has not done everything. It was only foundation. After that he began to erect the temple by writing his books. But we are deprived of that. He could not complete his work."
GS: Prabhupada himself said that if he'd lived longer he would have translated so many more books.
TKG: He didn't finish the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
PP: Yes. What people are reading into this is....
GS: I don't even know if it's true, but I heard many times, in ISKCON circles, that Srila Prabhupada said he'd only completed fifty percent of his work. If Prabhupada said he only completed fifty percent of his work, nobody minds. But if Narayana Maharaja says something, because of prejudice, they take it differently.
BP: But no one thinks that Prabhupada just established the foundation meaning just the basics.
GS: When he says the ground, what he means is that pure bhakti is anyabilasita sunyam jnana karmady anavrtam. So to cut the jungle, as he says, of mayavada and karmavada and other things, is to clear the ground for pure bhakti.
GS: When Prabhupada was in Teheran, Atreya Rsi made some very sentimental statement that one day the Muslims would be chanting Hare Krsna. And Prabhupada said, "Why should they chant Hare Krsna? They can chant 'Allah, Allah.' We are not sectarian."
And in Sri Lanka Prabhupada said we could keep a Deity of Buddha in the temple. It is completely wrong that unity can take place only when they give up everything and surrender to ISKCON and the GBC.
TKG: Prove. Give any shred of evidence that Prabhupada said it. Again ... "There is nothing in the act of formation of the BSCT which suggests that Srila Prabhupada was overruling his previously stated desire that the Gaudiya Vaisnavas should be united under ISKCON's banner." Where is that statement?
GS: Where is that previously stated? Where?
TKG: Listen to this quote from Bhakti Charu Maharaja. Listen to this, "However, when our duty is to police the Society we cannot be worried about offending others. For the sake of a greater cause we have to be prepared to take some risk. I am sure that when we are taking the risk for the sake of Srila Prabhupada he will protect us. Did not Arjuna fight against Bhismadeva, a mahajana, for the sake of Krsna? What we are trying to do is to just protect ISKCON."
My only comment is...Won't Prabhupada protect us also? We are also trying to protect ISKCON - against the offenses he is suggesting ISKCON members take part in.
What is this, Panch?
PP: I am just trying to voice what I perceive as being the inner heart. You have spoken your heart on these issues, and I have heard the hearts of others. My own heart is drawn towards your perspective, and at the same time afraid, because I am neophyte. I am really a neophyte.
BP: The last part of neophyte is fight. That's what always happens. (Laughter)
PP: I am afraid of making a mistake. I see my senior Godbrothers on one side and other senior Godbrothers on another side. It's very, very difficult.
TKG: Can I say something? Please see how limited what we are proposing is. We are proposing only that devotees' personal association should not be restricted. That's all.
GS: I haven't really understood what the problems would be. Say there were ten instead of forty, what big difference would it make, especially if in the forty, he is increasing faith in Prabhupada, enthusiasm for service, knowledge of Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta.
BP: Up to this point, he's been sending everyone to ISKCON. But if ISKCON cuts all relationships with him, as it seems ready to do, he may start his own preaching. Then it won't just be five a year. It won't just be twenty. It could be hundreds and hundreds of...
TKG: ...competitors.
BP: Up to now he was basically just sending everyone to ISKCON.
GS: I don't think the GBC has to do anything except lift the restriction. They don't have to certify him. They don't have to condemn him. They don't have to make any decision. They should just leave it up to the individual to decide. Narayana Maharaja is not easy to understand. He has no time, he is not interested. He feels visitors are a botheration in a sense. So not many will go. It's like during the zonal acarya days. The use of force created so many problems and disturbances. Just take off the artificial restrictions. You don't have to make any statements or judgement.
PP: My personal feeling is that it would be better if the GBC were to firmly establish and propagate a philosophy of guru tattva that is more in line with our siddhanta.
GS: Yes!
TKG: The real issue is siksa-guru. And the block is diksa-guru. Just like the real issue in the mid-80s was the zonal acaryas and the solution was to expand the number of gurus. Now the problem is coming from diksa-guru and...
PP: And then finally maybe we can be clear of blockage. We have been constipated for the last 15 years.
BP: Men and money.
PP: Right. It's men, it's money, it's control, it's authority. It's a lot of things. It's a lot of heavy institutional hierarchies.
TKG. I got such good training from Narayana Maharaja because I saw a selfless siksa-guru and how he deals with my diksa disciples whenever he had occasion to meet them at any public function. He just increases their faith so much in me that I realize that there is no threat. Actually there is no threat. It's the greatest blessing. I've personally experienced it.
[End]
TKG: You know who gives siddha-pranali initiation? The babajis at Radha-kunda. They give siddha-pranali initiation.
PP: We heard of something called manjari-diksa.
TKG: They do all these things. And he is the enemy of the babajis. More than anyone in ISKCON he is capable of defeating the babajis.
GS: Not only that. He is aware of all the subtleties involved in their position and the dangers of it. And the whole history of the antagonism between the babajis and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
?: Did he give some special rasika initiation to Arca Vigraha before she died?
TKG: You have to understand how the rumors spread. Our critics told Suhotra Swami when he visited Vrindavan. They whispered in his ear that Arca Vigraha was given siddha-pranali initiation. Instead of asking Giriraj Maharaja, who was present here in Vrindavan, about it, he went to Europe and told Harikesa Maharaja and Bhakti Charu Maharaja. He also told them who he heard it from. I met Harikesa Maharaja in Zurich - by chance. I told him it's just nonsense. And I got a letter from Bhakti Charu Maharaja enquiring. I was outraged because this woman was one of the most advanced persons I ever met. He didn't give her siddha-pranali initiation. I was infuriated that Suhotra Swami would have gone to this extent. I said to Bhakti Charu Maharaja, "Why are you criticizing Narayana Maharaja and us? Why are you besmearing the name of mother Arca Vigraha while she's on her deathbed?"
LS: I am amazed. Where does this come from?
GS: It's a rumor. It's fear, attachment, envy.
BP: That's what it is. People criticized Narayana Maharaja for visiting Arca Vigraha on her death bed. "What right has this Narayana Maharaja to come to visit Arca Vigraha?" This is what people told me.
She is dying. She has some faith in this man. And people, with no heart, no brain, dare to criticize. One's whole faith is tested at the time of death. And they are criticizing this man for coming to visit her at the time of her death.
PP: Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna.
BP: At the time of her death they criticize. Such a low mentality.
TKG: Don't be like Bhisma. I am praying to you all. Please, at some point get outraged and do something. If you want, come with me. We should sit. You should examine. I am ready to open anything up to you if you really want to understand, but at some point you have to really speak up: "That's wrong. This is wrong." It's low politics.
GS: We very much appreciate the first step you all have taken; we just want it to go further.
TKG: We want it to go further. That's the point.
PP: Well, we at least have to make our report. That much we have to do. When this is ready, this is going to be a long detailed thing.... We are just about out of time.
TKG: One very important point is hari-nama initiation. There is criticism of his style of hari-nama initiation.
TKG: He gives the Gaudiya Matha hari-nama initiation, not the ISKCON hari-nama initiation. That's got nothing to do with us. But with Western devotees, he makes them chant 16 rounds and follow the four principles. He has accepted Prabhupada's standard. He has no doubt that Prabhupada knows what's best. He just doesn't do a big yajna.
GS: Narayana Maharaja has mentioned that he appreciates Prabhupada's system in ISKCON more than the system in his institution. He is not the acarya of his institution and he is loyal, so he may not be able to make changes, but he does appreciate Prabhupada's genius and inspiration in relation to preaching and organizing a spiritual movement.
?: It goes further than that. He accepts Srila Prabhupada as his siksa-guru. He said it openly many times.
LS: He said it at that Mayapura parikrama.
TKG: Out loud. In his room he keeps a photo of Prabhupada that's as big as Kesava Maharaja's, side by side with it. And he's got their acarya's photo about this big.
PP: Even my wife was talking with one devotee who just came from his parikrama and her observation was that Narayana Maharaja was actually bothered by the Western devotees.
GS: He is asking for relief. He is really asking for relief.
?: Not canvassing.
TKG: The few Westerners he really wants to deal with, actually, are the twelve senior people, because he is sure they can take full advantage of his association. In the long run it will be the best service for ISKCON.
"There is a difference between cooperation and unification."
TKG: Who is pushing to unify ISKCON with the Gaudiya Matha? Do they present this as our position?
"Srila Prabhupada distinctly wanted this unification to take place under the banner of ISKCON and under the management of the GBC body."
TKG: I am just curious to find out where this came from.
BVPM: I know in Mayapura Prabhupada had offered the Gosvami Matha, "I will give bus and books. All they have to do is get their brahmacaris and take it out and distribute." It didn't have anything to do with being under the GBC.
GS: This is very important. This is used again and again to prove that Narayana Maharaja hasn't really accepted Prabhupada, that he hasn't either left his Guru Maharaja's institution and surrendered to the GBC body or merged his institution with ISKCON under the GBC body. It's absurd to think that Prabhupada would have even suggested it.
TKG: Where did this come from that there is need of unification, that they are supposed to give up their institutions, merge with ISKCON, and work under the GBC? Besides Jayapataka Maharaja's desire for it, can anyone show me anything in writing or in speech where Prabhupada says this? I know Jayapataka Maharaja envisions this as the only possible way. But where does it come from?
LS: It will never happen.
TKG: It will never happen, but where did Prabhupada say it should happen?
BP: In Australia Prabhupada told the Christians all they have to do is give up eating meat and that we should cooperate for preaching.
PP: There is some other talk about resignation.
BP: On Com?
PP: Well, there was Suhotra's message, and then some other talk.
BP: The funny thing is that no one ever talks to the people involved. It's like a bunch of ladies gossiping.
"Narayana Maharaja is such an exalted ragatmika devotee, and his mood is the same as Srila Prabhupada's, his association is practically as valuable as Srila Prabhupada's association since the taste and benefits are the same."
TKG: What's this objection about? "HH Narayana Maharaja is such an exalted ragatmika devotee..." Who says this?
?: This is supposed to be your position.
GS: They are attributing it to us?
TKG: Yes, it's our position. "His association is practically as valuable as Srila Prabhupada's association since the taste and benefits are the same." This is what they say that we say.
LS: This comes from Visvarupa Mahotsava. Jadurani was explaining something after lunch.
PP: She was saying that the inspiration she received for her paintings has come from Srila Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja to her.
TKG: That's very reasonable.
PP: So it's not me giving paintings to Narayana Maharaja, it's him giving paintings to me. Or Srila Prabhupada is giving me paintings through Narayana Maharaja.
GS: In other words, Narayana Maharaja got an inspiration for a painting and asked her to put it on canvas. As Prabhupada's disciple she sees Srila Prabhupada working through Narayana Maharaja. But because the vision of the painting is coming from Narayana Maharaja to her, she considers herself just the instrument to put it on canvas. So it's coming from Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja to her.
TKG. Everyone who has a siksa-guru would think like this. That's the point.
GS: One problem in the movement in general is lack of understanding of guru-tattva. I was just going over in my mind the issues that have shaken the movement over the years. They were the zonal-acarya system and the posthumous-ritvik theory and the present "problem." And all three disturbances have come from lack of proper understanding of guru-tattva. We don't understand siksa-guru. Because we don't have a clear understanding that the original guru is Krsna and that every other guru is just repeating Krsna's message and serving Him, we get into the personality cult, the Prabhupada sampradaya, and the idea that if you accept a siksa-guru you are minimizing Prabhupada. If you see your siksa-guru as one with Prabhupada you are minimizing Prabhupada. All this is due to improper understanding of guru-tattva.
BP: Through the zonal acarya crisis, the movement established the position of the Founder-acarya. Through the ritvik theory crisis, we established the diksa-guru. And now, through the present crisis, we have to establish the proper understanding of siksa-guru.
"Many, many senior devotees see evidence that Narayana Maharaja's mood is not the same as Srila Prabhupada's. One may have opinions about the taste of the fruit being the same or the mood being the same, but such opinions must be confirmed by guru, sadhu and sastra. To draw such conclusions means that one considers that one actually fully understood the taste and mood of Srila Prabhupada's association. Srila Prabhupada established the GBC body specifically to detect and root out such speculative conclusions based on material sentiment. There is nothing in Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to support this position."
TKG: "Many senior devotees see evidence that Narayana Maharaja's mood is not the same as Srila Prabhupada's." I am waiting to see what that evidence is.
PP: Again it's all based on hearsay, misreadings. Narayana Maharaja's talks are difficult to follow and he speaks from a different perspective. As I perceive it, his grammar is also different from what we are accustomed to.
TKG. Therefore you should take help from people who are close to him and who understand him.
PP: So different conceptions have come that Narayana Maharaja has a different perspective on preaching than Srila Prabhupada.
TKG: To some extent what you say is true, but our critics also have a motive. From the beginning they have had a very negative attitude which makes it difficult for them to approach us for an accurate understanding. They want to see faults in him. But I am not going to misrepresent him. After you understand him properly, if you still don't agree, then you can get upset.
PP: I know. Personally I found that when I read Narayana Maharaja's statements with the attitude that he is speaking the same as Srila Prabhupada, I understand his words in that way. If I read with the attitude that he is speaking something different, I understand in that way. Whatever attitude I read it with I get a different meaning.
TKG: Isn't it true with Bhagavad-gita?
BP: Another point is that many senior devotees say that Narayana Maharaja's mood is different from Srila Prabhupada's. Well, Bhakti-vidya-purna Maharaja doesn't have exactly the same mood as Srila Prabhupada, nor does Giriraj Maharaja, nor Lokanath Maharaja.
GS: Nor did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
PP: Within our society, there are all different moods.
PP: Now, can you say something about this siddha-pranali initiation?
BP: Step into the back room, Panca.
(Laughter)
BP: What are people saying?
PP: It's a rumor. That he gives siddha-pranali initiation.
BP: To whom?
PP: To ISKCON devotees.
BP: To Giriraj Manjari? To Tamal Manjari? What is it? What is it?
LS: From these nicknames given.
BP: What? Two people of all the people that he sees? So nicknames were given. Where's the siddha- pranali?
"One's internal development of Krsna consciousness is primary and one's institutional relationship is external. If we have to choose between our spiritual relationships and ISKCON GBC resolutions we must choose the former."
This one is also wrong. Instead of external it should say secondary. One's internal development of Krsna consciousness is primary. But I don't agree. How can one separate one's Krsna consciousness from one's service?
GS: They argue against our supposed position by saying that because Isvara Puri served as the menial servant of Madhavendra Puri he got Madhavendra Puri's mercy.
TKG: The argument against us - that we care for internal development but not external service - is wrong. Our lives don't show that. We are serving the institution continuously....Now 3.3, love and trust.
"There should be love and trust in those devotees who have served in leadership roles in ISKCON for so many years that they should be allowed to make decisions about how they cultivate spiritual life without trying to make superficial institutional restrictions."
We are questioning, not disobeying. Do we have the right to question? Does questioning mean disobedience?
GS: To the contrary, if we were selfish we could very easily keep quiet. But precisely because we are concerned about the well-being of the movement, which begins with the GBC body, we are raising issues we think have to be dealt with properly by the GBC body, not just for our own selves but for the general welfare of the devotees in our movement, now and in the future.
TKG: Now it says that others who are doing well should have the right to question us. Fine. Let them question us directly, but not on Com.
GS: Yes.
TKG: It's Com bat. They want to score points. Next, 3.4.1, under "our position," they place the words in our mouths: "That these resolutions have not been followed by the GBC body for so many years so they in effect have no validity and need not be followed."
That isn't our position. Anything that's in the books has to be followed or, if it's not proper, it should be repealed.
BP: Last year I submitted a proposal to repeal these 1982 resolutions. Due to the nature of last year's meetings, the proposal was not dealt with.
GS: Two years ago Ravindra Svarupa said he was going to drop the resolution of 1982 in the revisions committee. He never did it. It's been the policy of the GBC not to go over old resolutions one by one, but rather to have the revisions committee deal with them.
But Ravindra Svarupa himself told the GBC body he thought the resolutions were defunct. Not only were the resolutions neither followed nor enforced, but the GBC itself went to Narayana Maharaja during the ritvik theory agitation and printed a discussion with him in the ISKCON Journal, the main instrument that defused the ritvik crisis. The conduct of the GBC itself indicates that the old resolution was defunct. It just was never officially removed.
TKG: Gaura Govinda Maharaja also took siksa from outside. For years, from around '82, he took siksa from a Gaudiya Matha babaji.
"As a consequence of the lack of importance placed in institutional considerations and the view that managerial matters and institutional rules are 'external,' and thus inferior to 'internal' affairs, there is no strict following of the GBC body's rules nor of commitments made to the GBC body such as the agreement which was signed at the 1994 meeting."
TKG: Let them prove that we've minimized the importance of the institution. Prove it. It's false.
TKG: And we never said that managerial matters and institutional rules are "external" and thus inferior to internal affairs. We've already demonstrated that this is false. "There is no strict following of the GBC body's rules, nor of commitments made to the GBC body such as the agreement signed at the 1994 meeting." I've proved that we have followed.
LS: Many don't know that.
TKG: If they don't know, why should they assume - especially without asking us? Anyway, now they'll know.
GS: A copy of the undertaking was left with Jagadish Maharaja. If the people who are so quick to accuse us of not following had themselves followed the undertaking and brought their concerns to Jagadish Maharaja they would know. Instead they broadcast their misinformation all over the world. They are the ones who didn't follow the procedure that was agreed upon in Mayapura.
TKG: Do you understand? All concerned parties were informed that there is a liaison officer, and if you have grievances you should go to him. I pointed that out in my letter to Suhotra Maharaja. He admits that he should have done it, but he said he thought it was good enough to talk to two GBC men. But that's not what we agreed. He has just perpetuated the problem.
LS: They say that the liaison officer wasn't accessible.
GS: After Visvarupa Mahotsava I was very concerned to inform Jagadish Maharaja according to proper procedure. He was at the Saranagati farm, the most accessible place of all. And I got through within two days. I phoned the Vancouver temple, got the phone number of some devotees who lived near Saranagati, and made a phone appointment to speak to Jagadisha Maharaja.
LS: The other thing they say is that he was chosen because we knew he wouldn't do anything.
TKG: Come on, Maharaja. He was also chosen as the chairman of the GBC.
GS: He was also a local Vrindavana GBC, famous for being grave, fair-minded and....
TKG. So it's not true - a typical baseless accusation.
"Naturally the junior devotees will follow the example of the seniors."
I want to know if that has happened. Since it's so natural, why hasn't it happened?
?: Haven't we covered this?
TKG: I know. I am covering it again. You know why it hasn't happened? Because it's not natural.
GS: What is natural is that different devotees will progress in different ways. And devotees should understand what Prabhupada said so many times: One should act accordingly to one's position and not imitate. Devotees who became gurus and tried to imitate had trouble. But if as gurus they act according to their actual position, they can be gurus. So it is just natural that different devotees will have different services and inclinations. And devotees have to understand the principle of doing their duty and acting appropriately for their own position and not imitating.
TKG: If those leaders who keep talking of HH Narayana Maharaja were actually convinced there was a problem, they should kindly approach and convince me. Do not threaten me. "Those who wish to follow HH Narayana Maharaja should resign."
PP: No, I know. I had to explain to her that she misread it. And I could see how she misread it. You asked how these things come. They come out of misreading Narayana Maharaja's statements and misreading of other statements.
GS: It comes from something deeper. It comes from hostility. Because if anyone really wanted to know what Narayana Maharaja meant they could easily have asked us. Or him.
BP: Like Sankarsana was mature, and after Nandalal approached him with her preaching he asked me. I cleared the same Mahavishnu point immediately.
PP: Yes, enmity is at the root.
GS: They don't want to know. They wish to find faults to discredit Narayana Maharaja, to discredit us, and keep ISKCON as narrow and crippled as...
"The authority of the GBC can be discounted in certain internal matters, and one's heart and faith cannot be legislated. If one of Srila Prabhupada's dear friends captures our heart and helps us serve Srila Prabhupada we cannot give him up on the demands of the GBC body, which has made so many mistakes in the past."
TKG: The last line says that we cannot give up Narayana Maharaja on the demands of the GBC body. My comment is that I don't want to give him up simply on sectarian demands. I will give him up by reason, scripture, convincing arguments.
They claim that our position is that we want to be loyal to Prabhupada but not to the GBC. Which one of us has ever said that we will not be loyal to the GBC but only to Prabhupada? If there is anybody in the movement who has fought against this it's me. I believe it more than anyone. I have proved it again and again.
Then if you say, "You say you follow the GBC, but you haven't accepted the GBC's will," I will show that I did accept the GBC's will. I am following the undertakings except for one, once, and I explained why. I have followed the GBC. When the GBC told me to leave my zone, to leave all my disciples, I did it. Nobody ever did this the way I did. I did it. Last year, to stop them from breaking the movement to pieces, we agreed to these undertakings, although we couldn't stand them. My whole life I've done this.
PP: It just came from...
BP: It's just politics.
TKG. The man who said it, I trained this man up. I trained him up about what the GBC is. Now he is telling me and saying I should be kicked off the GBC body because I don't know what it means to be a GBC man, to be loyal to the GBC. I blindly follow the GBC. I used to blindly follow; now I want to follow with my eyes open. But I'll never stop following.
I cannot stand what people insinuate and then put all over Com - all over the world - so that people look at me as if I gave up my loyalty to the GBC. I am an original GBC member. I have never given up my loyalty to the GBC. Never. I gave up all my disciples, I gave up my zone, and I went with nothing to China just to maintain faith in the GBC.
You all can't remain neutral. Sooner or later you have to speak up. Fifty men spoke up and they righted the wrongs in our movement. You have to see that a great wrong is being done here and, whether it's popular or not, finally you have to speak up and say, "Enough of this. This is nonsense." Otherwise it looks like a vendetta: one group of GBC over another. It's got to be neutral people who are not GBC men to finally carry the way out. If there is a large group of non GBC men who become fully convinced, especially senior devotees, everything will come clear.
?: Convinced about what?
TKG: Convinced that this is a completely false case.
PP: This case has been brewing since the beginning.
TKG: Who brewed it? Four people brewed this here in Vrindavan. It wasn't brewed by every Tom, Dick and Harry in town. Four people. And one GBC member took it up. That's history. Not everybody is into it. I don't disagree. Many people are into it. But this is how it became a conflagration.
BP: At least this point should be clear. If the arguments now being attributed to us are the actual arguments against us, these arguments are weird and obviously false and dishonest. That at least should be clear. These are dishonest arguments "One may argue we are still loyal to Prabhupada but not loyal to the GBC." Who is arguing like that? Where did he get that idea? When did any one of us indicate that was our argument?
PP: See, when we got into organizing this discussion, we made a conscious decision not to go through the exercise of enumerating different statements by different people at different times, different incidents, different facts or alleged facts, etc. We wanted to focus our attention on the principles of the argument.
TKG. I am saying that after all is said and done, as an intelligent man, you should look into this and become convinced one way or another.
PP: Yeah. I have been talking. I do talk to a lot of people and they say this and I say well, you know, but. So things like that go on. And I learned a lot today. I have to thank you very much.
TKG: You are helping. I just hope you are understanding our simple point, that our visiting Narayana Maharaja is not a threat to our movement. But I do think there is a serious threat to our movement that we now need to take stock of. There are some serious blockages which have created this problem. There are very serious misrepresentations of our philosophy. This Prabhupada sampradaya concoction is a very, very dangerous schism. It's apasiddhanta and it is being pushed by some GBC people. It's very, very bad. It is cutting us off from the whole Caitanya tree.
PP: We were handicapped because we did not have the text of your undertaking to the GBC. All of this having to do with following GBC authority was based on hearsay.
TKG: You know why we never let anybody have a copy of the undertaking? We feared that Narayana Maharaja would learn of it directly. We never told Narayana Maharaja these things, because if we had told him in March, after the GBC meetings, he would have been feeling the way he feels now. We were trying to avoid hurting him. So we tried to keep this very, very carefully.
PP: All of these objections are nullified, in my mind, because, as you have said, you have followed the GBC resolutions.
TKG: I have gone to see him half a dozen times. Yet people have the impression I go all the time. That's not true.
LS: On parikrama you joined, or some joined.
TKG: I went once. That was one of the half dozen times this year. Although I wanted to go - I would like to have gone everyday - I didn't. I restrained myself.
PP: We have only a little time and I would like time to conclude.
TKG. Let's go through it. 3.2.
TKG. I say there about a dozen senior people, maybe half a dozen men and half a dozen women. Senior people like ourselves. Now you should correct me if you know differently. But I think there must be another dozen people who are junior. Junior means they've only been devotees somewhere between seven and fifteen instead of twenty-five years. I say there is another dozen of them. And many of these people live in Vrindavan all the time. And I think that all these people I mentioned are continuing active service in ISKCON. Apart from that I think there must be another two dozen people around the world who are not in ISKCON and who have some relationship with Narayana Maharaja through initiation. To my knowledge, at this time, that's the total extent of his massive following after six to seven years.
But I can definitely say it's going to increase now, thanks to the way this issue has been handled. But while we were maintaining friendly relations with him, he was insisting that devotees continue to take shelter and initiation within ISKCON. Even now he continues to say that. But he was really saying it. He was considering that he was under the GBC. He would even ask us whenever there was some tension with ISKCON as to how he should deal with it.
But even now it's maybe somewhere between forty to fifty people maximum. Now after so many years, is that so dangerous? In your own opinion is it a large number?
PP: The fear is not of the present number. But as we have been talking before, the ramifications of ISKCON actually establishing a broader vision of ISKCON and spiritual authorities and so on are great. Up until now ISKCON has been operating under a very close system.
TKG: Of all my disciples, none of them goes to see him except one who lives here. If anybody had any interest to go it would be my followers because of my example. Why is it that they don't go? Lokanath Swami interviewed them. If they were following my example, why is it that they have no interest to go? And if my disciples are not going, whose disciples are going? They have to get their guru's permission. So where is the danger? And what is it that Narayana Maharaja tells people who go to him? Even the people estranged from this movement that he initiates, he tells to serve in ISKCON because they can't get shelter within his institution. He doesn't really initiate in his own organization. He is getting ready to wind up everything. He just wants to do writing and bhajana. Where is the danger from this person? We have been told he is a huge threat to the movement.
BP: Not just a huge threat - the biggest threat.
TKG. Biggest threat that ever hit this movement is this person. Can you see that it is all false?
You can't remain neutral. Sooner or later you have to answer as to your opinion. Everybody will have to answer: It's either correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Why are you still fearful? Or why is everyone else fearful? Convince me. You can't simply hold a stick up to my head and say, 1982 resolution.
What actually is the danger? Lokanath Maharaja told me that because of Narayana Maharaja his disciple ran away from preaching. Now it turns out that she was a sahajiya running all over the place after every little babaji, and the two people here who happen to be connected to Narayana Maharaja saved her.
Give credit to those two people and Narayana Maharaja; you should give credit where it's due. This girl was running after every babaji in this city, as we finally heard. We didn't hear the same story you told the other day. Now I've heard the actual facts. And this is going on again and again and again. Issues are being exaggerated, bluffed, and misunderstood. What I want is a neutral group of people to judge this thing. Really neutral people.
This is wrong, Lokanath Maharaja. You said that Madhavi was lured to Narayana Maharaja by these two matajis, but actually she was saved by them.
BP: And Karta said that she never even brought her one time to see Narayana Maharaja!
TKG: Karta never brought her to see Narayana Maharaja. You were swayed by all that you heard. Madhavi is forty years old. Her husband died. She is not able to go back to Japan to distribute and collect after so many years. She's old.
LS: We could say that this is a special case.
TKG: The case against us has been built, you know, by hundreds of such little misrepresentations.
TKG: You know my disciple Gauridas, the Gurukula ashram teacher? He went through two gurus. Jayatirtha and Bhagavan. He went through the biggest crisis you can imagine for six to seven years trying to find his guru. But he was so disillusioned by these two falldowns that he just couldn't put full faith in anyone. He finally went to Narayana Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja preached to him about how the ISKCON gurus are qualified and that even if a guru is not uttama from an objective point of view, he will still be able to give you everything up to prema one day because he will be uttama. And he completely instilled faith in this man's heart for our ISKCON gurus. And then, because of Narayana Maharaja, Gauridas conceived of taking shelter of an ISKCON guru.
Yet all we hear on Com is the complaint that Narayana Maharaja is influential in the Gurukula! Narayana Maharaja himself has no interest to initiate. I am just saying, this is the kind of service that this person does.
BP: Jadurani did not talk about how she met Narayana Maharaja. When she arrived here a few years ago she was still into the ritvik theory. Candrika, Rupa Vilasa's ex-wife, both of them were into the ritvik theory, and Narayana Maharaja completely cleared that and he gave them faith in ISKCON and ISKCON's authorities.
GS: Jadurani wasn't painting. She was doing comics. By Narayana Maharaja's association she came back to Prabhupada's original instruction to her and now she is doing the most extraordinary paintings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Radha-Krsna.
TKG: When Ramprasada saw Jadurani's painting for the first time, he said, "I can't paint anymore. How does she continue? She is the only artist from Prabhupada's time that's still painting." And yet, what is ISKCON's appreciative response? "Why is she painting and giving Narayana Maharaja the paintings?" That's the only reply. Simply meanness of heart. Just see the meanness of heart.
LS: Pettiness...
TKG: Never mind that she is inspired and is not a ritvik follower anymore.
BP: Can I say another thing about 2. We never say that he has a special revelation of Srila Prabhupada. I am just wondering where in the world the idea has come from?
PP: I can tell you. The Visvarupa Mahotsava transcript can be read in a great variety of ways. I mean, unfortunately Narayana Maharaja's speaking is very difficult to follow, which I noticed, for example, with this whole thing with Mahavisnu. Nandalal told me that Narayana Maharaja said that Prabhupada was on the level of Mahavisnu preaching.
TKG. Who did Prabhupada say should comment on the Bhagavad-gita? Bhakto si me sakha ceti. Unless someone is a devotee and a friend he cannot understand the mind of the speaker. Therefore if you want to know what Narayana Maharaja said, just ask a devotee and a friend. They'll tell you exactly what he meant. We don't have to ask a person who is totally hostile. Just like if you want to know what Krsna said you don't ask the scholars. You don't ask a Mayavadi. You don't ask the people who dislike Krsna. Why ask this woman who has made herself so totally inimical to us and Narayana Maharaja, "Could you explain, mataji?" and expect her to explain clearly what he said.
"Because we were too neophyte Srila Prabhupada only revealed a limited perception of himself. Because of his long and intimate association with Srila Prabhupada, HH Narayana Maharaja can help us to perceive Srila Prabhupada's eternal, nitya position."
"HH Narayana Maharaja has repeatedly stressed that Srila Prabhupada is an eternal associate of Krishna in manjari bhava. However Srila Prabhupada did not reveal to us his siddha deha. HH Narayana Maharaja can help us to more fully appreciate Srila Prabhupada."
BP: Years and years ago it was going around that Prabhupada was only in sakhya rasa. The implication was that Prabhupada was therefore inferior. The point was that other devotees, his Godbrothers, were in madhura-rasa, so they were superior.
So in the midst of this propaganda, Narayana Maharaja, every disappearance day festival of Prabhupada's, would preach that Prabhupada was in madhurya-rasa to counteract this nonsense propaganda that you have to go outside of ISKCON to reach the higher realms of Krsna consciousness. That's where it began that Narayana Maharaja says that Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa.
TKG: I don't understand the next point. "Our understanding is that the spiritual master may reveal his eternal sidha deha to an intimate advanced disciple or follower, who then may reveal it to others. HH Narayana Maharaja does not accept Srila Prabhupada as acarya and his intimacy and friendship is on the level of Srila Prabhupada's external activities. How can we accept that he has a special revelation of Srila Prabhupada."
They say their understanding is that the spiritual master may reveal his eternal siddha-deha to an intimate advanced disciple or follower, who then may reveal it to others. They continue by saying that HH Narayana Maharaja does not accept Srila Prabhupada as acarya and his intimacy and friendship are on the level of Srila Prabhupada's external activities. Can you explain what they mean?
PP: This is someone's perception that Narayana Maharaja's association with Srila Prabhupada was in relation to the preaching and different activities that he had during his early days, so we cannot assume...
GS: Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada were friends and Narayana Maharaja used to serve Srila Prabhupada in many ways. He used to cook chapatis for him. They enjoyed an intimate friendship and they discussed confidential things which perhaps Srila Prabhupada didn't discuss with us. This is natural because different people have different relationships. To think that to have intimate relationship with Srila Prabhupada one has to accept him as the acarya and surrender to him in the mood of disciple and become subordinate to the GBC is ridiculous.
As far as I can understand they had a mood of intimate friendship and service and Narayana Maharaja said they discussed many things.
TKG: Another point. Narayana Maharaja explained that the Gaudiya acaryas in our line are usually in madhurya-bhava. And from the symptoms that we've seen of Prabhupada's activities - like establishing Radha-Krsna all over the world and so many other things - and since madhurya-bhava is the most complete relationship of the five rasas, for this and various other reasons we accept his statement that Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa.
Prabhupada told us to chant prayers, nikunja yunoh rati keli siddhyai, and we meditate on them in relation to Prabhupada. That's clearly in madhurya-bhava. Prabhupada also wrote Jayapataka Maharaja that those prayers are not necessarily for all gurus. And yet Prabhupada specifically taught us to sing them to glorify him. So that indicates something. The prayer before that is also indicative of madhurya-bhava.
So Narayana Maharaja has made us more aware of this fact and certainly it will have more and more relevance as we advance and understand more.
To say that this is not important, as some GBC men suggest, "I don't care what you are in your nitya-lila," even though we say jaya nitya-lila om visnupada, but "it doesn't matter what you are in nitya-lila." I think that's pretty extraordinary.
I want to know Prabhupada. I want to come close to Prabhupada. I want to love Prabhupada. I know I may not know every detail about Prabhupada's identity, but based upon scripture I can certainly understand some general things about what Prabhupada must be doing now.
As far as Prabhupada's actual identity, Narayana Maharaja has told us very clearly how we are going to be able to understand it. He said that at the right time, when you are qualified, your Guru Maharaja will reveal it to you in your heart. He has never told us that he would tell us. He has never indicated that he knows what it is, specifically. He has only said to us that at the right time your Guru Maharaja will reveal to you in the heart.
So it's very astonishing to me that the very thing our critics say should happen - that Prabhupada will reveal his identity to us - is exactly what Narayana Maharaja has been saying all along.
They have been fabricating all this other garbage about what we are supposed to be saying, which is not what we are saying. It's just the same thing again and again. So I hope this will clear the point. Narayana Maharaja never said he would tell us. He always said that when the disciple is qualified he will get to know by the grace of his guru.
BP: In this criticism, and in so many of the others, there is always this intimation that Narayana Maharaja is saying "I am your Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada's, dear friend. Because I am his dear friend, if you surrender unto me and come to me, I will reveal so many intimate things that you do not know because I have a special relationship with him."
That type of talk is just mythology. He doesn't speak like that. We don't think like that. He has not propagated anything like that.
TKG: He does not talk excessively about the relationship. He just discusses scripture with us. He says scripture can give you many, many indications about your guru. That's how he helps. A siksa-guru can help you by teaching you the meaning of scripture.
BP: He had a friendship with Prabhupada and they had lots of affection. That's it.
TKG: And he said that they had talks and that from their talks and the singing Prabhupada did and the choice of songs Prabhupada sang he could understand something about Prabhupada's position. Narayana Maharaja mentioned that Prabhupada regularly sang two songs--the Prayers to the Six Gosvamis and Sri Rupa Manjari Pada. And he says that from these songs and the talks they had, he has no doubt that Prabhupada was in madhurya-bhava.
Who are we to question it? In any case, I don't need to question it because there is enough scriptural evidence to convince me. And I am further happy to hear this confirmation from Narayana Maharaja.
But it doesn't mean there was some intimate deep friendship and that's why he is now specifically qualified. We have never said that and have no interest to make him the siksa-guru of ISKCON. That's the myth people have been propagating. But it is not true. And it's obvious he is not. So many don't accept him. That's why I keep saying, all I see is fear of fear. It's blind fear. I am waiting to see reasons for the fear. Then I will stop seeing him.
If all I hear is you saying "I am just fearful" or "I am disturbed" how can I be convinced? Why are you fearful? Just show me why you are fearful. Show me that philosophy. We are going through it. There is nothing. So far there has been nothing. The things attributed to us are all incorrect. If these are the reasons, then on every single one we are correct. And how many people go to see him? Why don't you ask that question? What is the extent of this following in ISKCON?
LS: I asked ...
[end of available transcript]
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Recently Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj`s
Siksha Disciple Darmavira prabhu a disciple of
Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja`s
disciple Brajbihari prabhu opened a Temple
in Lenasia Johannesburg.Their Lordships Sri
Sri Radha Govinda was installed.However
Iskcon Gauteng represented by Keshava Krsna
dasa a disciple of Giriraja Maharaja from
Iskcon wrote 2 articles without any facts.
It amazes me that when other Vaishnava groups
are sincerely trying to preach on behalf of
our Guru Maharaj and Guru Parampara and Sri
Caitanya Mahaprabhu that this type of behaviour
is seen by writing all this untruths.
This Blog was created so that no politics
will be written and only activities that
uplift our Bhakti and inspire others to
follow this pathof Pure Bhakti.However
as a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Maharaja i feel it my duty
to defend the Great Honour o my Dear
Beloved Spiritual Master.So i decided
for Kesava Krsna Dasa and others who find
great joy writing false articles and circulating
i hereby submit minutes of a meeting held in Sri
Vrndavan Dham and what must be noted that Kesava
Krsna prabhu`s guru is defending Srila Bhaktivedanta
Narayana Maharaja as his Siksha Guru after all
there is no difference between Diksha and Siksha
Guru.
© 1999 VNN
WORLD
March 10, 1999 VNN3289
Vrindavana Istagosthi addressing Gopi-bhava and Narayana Maharaja
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BY PURU DAS ADHIKARI
USA, Mar 10 (VNN) — Dear Prabhus, Dandavats and pranams. All glories to Sri Guru and Gouranga. In my effort to bring to light information about ISKCON's history and events otherwise not generally known by the larger body of rank and file devotees I offer you this transcript of November l994 GBC Committee meetings with regard to my siksa guru Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj.
I said previously in the introduction to "Cooperation" that Srila Narayana Maharj was not always persona non grata in ISKCON. At this time, l994, Girirj Swami and Tamal Krsna Goswami had not yet buckled under gbc pressures to disassociate with him, and gave some rather rational explanations in defense of taking his darshan and siksa. Read for yourself and you decide. I can only wonder how much heavy handed behavior came down on their heads to force them, some time later, to adjust their position and go against their hearts. Your Servant, Puru Das Adhikari
Vrindavana Istagosthi addressing Gopi-bhava and Narayana Maharaja
5 November 1994
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Part l: Morning Session
On the request of Naveen Krsna Prabhu, the GBC Chairman, His Holiness Lokanath Swami organized a committee of senior devotees consisting of HH Radhanath Swami, HH Indradyumna Swami, HH Bhakti-vidya-purna Swami, HH Bhakti Caitanya Swami, HG Krsna Ksetra Prabhu and HG Pancaratna Prabhu, to clarify some of the basic issues regarding senior ISKCON leaders visiting HH Narayana Maharaja. The committee first interviewed concerned persons in Vrindavan and thereafter presented a written compilation of their concerns to HH Tamal Krsna Gosvami, HH Giriraj Swami, HH Dhanurdhara Swami and HG Bhurijana Prabhu. The following conversation represents these devotees' response to the various points of concern in the document.
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Giriraja Swami (GS): This whole document has come from those opposed to us. The ideas they are attributing to us are not our ideas at all.
Lokanath Swami (LS): You could say there's a misunderstanding of...we are misunderstood and...
GS: People may say we say certain things that we don't.
LS: Actually that is the purpose of this get-together.
Bhurijana Prabhu (BP): I have one question. What are the thoughts of the GBC body?
Pancaratna Prabhu (PP): Unfortunately the only GBC members I've had access to during our work were Gopal Krsna Maharaja and Mukunda Maharaja and whatever we picked up over Com, from Hrdayananda and Bhakti Charu Maharaja. The other persons were not GBC members.
BP: My personal position is not at all represented here. I have a doubt that the opposing position is properly represented either.
PP: That's why we've invited other senior devotees here who might have some idea of the opposing positions.
Tamal Krsna Goswami (TKG): That's fair enough.
PP: With your permission, as we are short of time, we'd like to start.
Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja (BVPM): I'm just wondering if it wouldn't be appropriate to get some history. My understanding was that there was a certain settlement on this issue made at the last GBC meetings. If that's the case, what is now the problem? What has transpired to bring this discussion about?
GS: I think the first thing to do is to read the undertaking and to explain what it actually means.
TKG: I'll read to you from a letter I put on Com today. "It is my clear understanding - and I believe it is the understanding of the others who signed the undertaking of the GBC - that we had the GBC's approval to continue regarding HH Narayana Maharaja as our siksa-guru. From what certain GBC members have written both on Com and through personal correspondence, it is clear that it is they who do not know what the undertaking was. For example, HH Suhotra Swami communicated to a temple president (who happens to be my disciple) in his zone the outcome of what he termed a "gentlemen's agreement." He wrote: "The GBC men who have been visiting Narayana Maharaja for instruction on raganuga-bhakti will stop that and will limit their connection with him to only social, formal invitations."
The actual undertaking was:
1. We will not regularly visit HH Narayana Maharaja for instruction or siksa, nor engage in any systematic study under him. 2. Will not publicly display any affection for Narayana Maharaja over and above normal Vaisnava etiquette. Private interaction be conducted in order to maintain normal friendly relationships. 4. We will not display or disseminate any tapes or transcripts of HH Narayana Maharaja."
There were two more undertakings but they're not as relevant. I can read them if you want, but they don't figure in the following review.
"Please note that there is no mention of raganuga-bhakti anywhere in the undertaking. Please also note and carefully read where it says, 'We will not regularly visit HH Narayana Maharaja for instructions.' It does not say that we will stop all siksa and study of the scripture with him. Rather it will no longer be done regularly or in a systematic fashion. Since we still regard him as a siksa-guru, how can our visits to him be any other than taking siksa from him? We agreed to not publicly display any affection for him. That implies we may privately have such affection for him.
"Also please note, 'We will not display or disseminate any tapes or transcripts of his.' There is no mention that we may not make use of such tapes or transcripts for our personal edification. When I was questioned directly in a GBC plenary session as to what my relationship with Narayana Maharaja was, I clearly responded that I accepted him as my siksa-guru. Never in any of the meetings were we told that we were no longer allowed to do so. Therefore the conclusion of the meetings have clearly indicated that the GBC has given its approval for our maintaining a siksa relationship with him, and that we are not in violation of the 1982 resolution."
These are the undertakings exactly. That's what they are and how we understand them.
PP: To give just a bit more history. As the proceedings of the GBC were private and were not made public, the general body of devotees still experience confusion, misunderstanding, perhaps doubts, apprehensions and so on. And then recently at the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony, which was conducted at Mathura, various speeches were made, and those were transcribed and circulated.
I think Kurma Rupa transcribed it and somehow began to circulate it. So various statements made on that occasion raised doubts amongst some GBC members and many others here and elsewhere that lead to the issues that we have to discuss.
TKG: Unfortunately, so many things are being circulated. The GBC promised to fulfill its part of the undertaking by collecting all the materials (originals and copies both) which were stolen from Sacinandana Swami and return them to him. But to this very day they are still being distributed by some of the same persons who stole them. Anyway, this is a message from myself and Giriraj Maharaja that we put on Com today. "Yesterday Badarinarayana prabhu's Com message about our talks at Visvarupa Mahotsava came into our hands through a friend. Although immediately after the event we informed His Holiness Jagadish Goswami, the GBC liaison, about the situation, as the discussion has now come on Com we shall explain here as well." The GBC liaison was the number 6 undertaking made by the GBC. Nothing was to be done except through the liaison. To avoid this whole thing coming on Com as it did last year, we arranged for a liaison.
BP: We didn't, the GBC did.
TKG: The GBC did.
BP: We were not even there.
TKG: As far as who spread this on Com, it was Suhotra Swami. Kurma Rupa has no access to GBC Com.
"When I visited Vrindavan after Janmastami I was met by many concerned devotees who told me how offended and hurt Narayana Maharaja was that we had not invited him to Balarama's Appearance Day, how hurt and confused Narayana Maharaja's followers were that we had not invited him, and how disappointed and confused many ISKCON devotees were that he did not come. Later I heard that Narayana Maharaja had come to his Vrindavan centre on Balarama's Appearance Day expecting us to meet and accompany him to the celebration. Ultimately when no one came he returned to Mathura.
"We further heard that Narayana Maharaja himself had spoken about the incident for many days thereafter. When one devotee asked him to explain his statement, 'Although the maha-bhagavata may not take offense, the dust of his lotus feet may.' Narayana Maharaja replied, 'The dust of the lotus feet indicates the followers of the maha-bhagavata.'
"His devotees were confused. From their point of view, Narayana Maharaja had always tried to help ISKCON and ISKCON's devotees, and they could not understand what wrong he had done to be neglected so, especially after his having been invited for the last twelve years or so."
Dhanurdhara Swami (DS): I can make a point that Bhavananda initially invited him. It was that long ago.
TKG: "I happened to be in Vrindavan in early August, some days before Balarama's Appearance Day. Although as part of the undertaking Narayana Maharaja was not to be invited to attend, still, as the event approached, I could see that to exclude Narayana Maharaja would be highly insulting. I urged those present to try to do something. (At the time, both Bhurijana prabhu and Kadamba Kanana prabhu were outside India.) Apparently nothing could be done.
"According to our agreement with the GBC body, we were to maintain normal friendly relations and not cause offense. Somehow when the GBC agreed to exclude Narayana Maharaja from Balarama's Appearance Day we did not foresee that such an action would indeed constitute an insult and disrupt relations.
"Visvarupa Mahotsava, the day Lord Caitanya's brother took sannyasa and the day Srila Prabhupada took sannyasa from His Holiness Kesava Maharaja at the Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha in Mathura, has been celebrated for the benefit of ISKCON devotees at the Matha for many years. As agreed in Mayapura, ISKCON devotees went. Considering how Narayana Maharaja and his followers had been slighted, we thought the first priority was to satisfy them. Although the audience consisted of both ISKCON devotees and other Gaudiya Vaisnavas, we chose to speak to His Holiness Narayana Maharaja and his followers. Since the offense had been committed by the institution, the situation had to be addressed by representatives of the institution . After our talks at Visvarupa Mahotsava many devotees seemed relieved, and the cloud seemed to have been lifted.
"While we had to say certain things to remove the offense, we were also concerned that our statements should not confuse or disturb devotees who did not realize our intentions. After the event we met with all the senior devotees who were personally present and explained the background. We assured them that we had no intention of defying the GBC or of changing our policy in relation to Narayana Maharaja and ISKCON. We spoke as we did only to mitigate the insult and we hoped never to have to do so again. As the GBC body wanted us to maintain normal friendly relations and not commit offense, we considered we were acting on behalf of the GBC body. Offenses against Vaisnavas are such that they can disturb one's spiritual life even up to the stage of bhava-bhakti, life after life. But we hoped that henceforth if we just observed proper Vaisnava etiquette we could avoid having to speak so strongly. And we apologized for any confusion or disturbance caused by our excesses.
"We wish to reassure the GBC that we will always remain loyal to Srila Prabhupada and the GBC and will always try to work in the best interest of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. At the same time, as GBC members, we will try to help the GBC avoid mistakes in the future. If any members want further discussion or clarification on the subject, they may contact us directly."
As a point of clarification, of all the GBC members who went on Com about this, not one of them ever asked either of us any clarification of what happened. No one asked us why we said what we said.
Krsna Ksetra (KK): It seems that again Com is the culprit.
TKG: That statement about Com is extremely important. You may find that as the day goes on we will repeat that statement.
PP: Visvarupa Mahotsava has made the issue a very hot topic. But I also have to say that since Gaura Purnima, I have been hearing from devotees that I associate with that this is still an issue and that it must be settled. In other words, there's a concern that it was not fully addressed in Gaura Purnima. Devotees are therefore attempting to try and push forward a resolution of these concerns. This document is meant to serve as an agenda for the different concerns.
The paper in your hands, compiled by the senior devotees present, represents what we have heard, what we've understood to be your position. There's definitely speculation involved, so we have to address that.
So I'm going to start. The first point has to do with the sufficiency or insufficiency of association with ISKCON devotees and the acceptance of authority outside of ISKCON. I'll just read...
1. Acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON.
GS: I already disagree with the statement, "acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON." I believe that the term outside of ISKCON is too vague to be workable. We are coming in a parampara that in one sense begins with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, goes through Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, and others. Now, are they in ISKCON? I think in the institutional sense in which we apply the definition, meaning under the GBC body, they're not in ISKCON. But does it mean that because they're not in ISKCON, taking any instruction from them outside of Prabhupada's books is taking siksa from outside ISKCON? And that taking such siksa from outside ISKCON minimizes ISKCON's position or the value of what Prabhupada gave us? This term "outside ISKCON" has been emotionalized and politicized.
BP: And equated with disloyalty to Prabhupada.
GS: First we should decide if taking instruction from Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the previous acaryas from any source outside Prabhupada's books constitutes taking instruction from outside ISKCON and is therefore a violation of ISKCON law.
PP: As a procedure, I'm not going to respond to different points or ask for responses. Our purpose is not to debate, but just to record these statements and the discussion.
GS: I'm just saying logically, as I see it, the basis of the disturbance is in the idea that taking instruction from outside of ISKCON is disloyal. But the definition of "outside of ISKCON" is not workable.
PP: I would like to clarify what I have heard to be the definition of going outside of ISKCON. Their definition of outside of ISKCON means outside of Srila Prabhupada's personal disciplic line, in other words, going backwards and forwards, his gurus and disciples.
GS: I feel that those are false distinctions.
PP: Then you can speak on that also.
GS: Our line is not based exclusively on diksa. In fact, our line specifically is based on siksa. So if someone who is not directly an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada has accepted the same conclusions of the parampara, he's not outside of our line or outside or Srila Prabhupada's line.
PP: The other point as far as what is seen as ISKCON is those who accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya. In other words, ISKCON means those devotees who accept Srila Prabhupada as the acarya.
LS: This corresponds to another part of the draft - prejudice - that anything outside ISKCON is bad. This is what Giriraj Maharaja has mentioned.
DS: There seem to be so many issues I really don't think we should try to cover them all. Can we use this draft as a guide to get to the root of the discussion?
GS: If the most basic premises in the controversy are addressed first - like the false duality about inside ISKCON and outside ISKCON - then all the detailed discussion becomes unnecessary.
BP: Perhaps a few basic principles should be discussed I see some over and over again. Like, "Prabhupada said, 'Don't associate with the Gaudiya Math' and you people are doing it." Just talking about that one point would probably remove fifty percent of the other points.
>From the way "Prabhupada said, Don't associate with the Gaudiya Matha" is reiterated again and again it seems that no one has read the paper Giriraj Maharaja put out last year, "Srila Prabhupada's Final Instruction: Cooperate." If these are their objections, they haven't even taken Giriraj Maharaja's paper into consideration or answered his arguments. They might not agree, but they should at least answer his arguments. If people aren't going to listen to our responses, I don't feel like talking. Just a broken record, "Prabhupada said." But Prabhupada also said you can associate with the Gaudiya Math. So if at every point they simply bring up that point without responding to all else Prabhupada said, what's the point of talking?
GS: All these hysterical concerns rest on the basic idea that there's a fault in going outside ISKCON for spiritual instruction. It just doesn't consider the fact that Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Rupa Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, are not in ISKCON.
BP: And Prabhupada before 1966.
PP: Others would disagree, that they are in ISKCON.
GS: Great. If they are in ISKCON, then someone representing them, repeating their instructions with reference to their books, is also in ISKCON, as much as Rupa Gosvami is. This distinction is false.
BVPM: I don't think this meeting has to decide anything. This meeting should just serve to clarify what these Vaisnavas who visit Narayana Maharaja actually feel. What's written on this paper is just a springboard because, as far as I can see, their position is misunderstood.
Radhanath Swami (RS): But that is what people think! So just by going over each of their objections to the positions people think are theirs, we'll get a clear understanding, "Is this what they really feel?" Let's go over each point and try to understand. We've just gotten an understanding of what they feel about acceptance of spiritual authority outside of ISKCON. I've learned a lot about what they believe just by hearing. There's no need to decide anything or debate, let's just hear from them.
TKG: There are 22 points in this paper we're discussing, which many people believe is our position and here's our response. That's about all you will get from this draft.
PP: That's exactly what we want.
GS: Just glancing through the draft the other day I got inspired to write something. We made a basic point, that Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the previous acaryas aren't in ISKCON in the sense that they're not under the GBC, but they are our siksa-gurus. And if someone can help us to understand what they taught, he can also be accepted as a siksa-guru. And as valid as Rupa Gosvami's teachings are, the teachings of someone who explains Rupa Goswami's would be similarly valid. We could just discuss basic points like that.
GS: Another point is whether Narayana Maharaja is a bona fide representative of our parampara and therefore whether taking siksa from him is acceptable - and who will decide.
PP: Then a third one is the effect upon the institution of accepting siksa from devotees who are not part of the institution.
TKG: I disagree, because if the principle is understood properly, then proper preaching will insure there is no adverse effect. What you say implies that there is something wrong in taking siksa outside ISKCON. But if we redefine outside, then it may not be an issue anymore and it won't create a disturbance. It's creating a disturbance because people preach that it's improper.
DS: There is an institutional concern. Previously people have made the point that someone outside ISKCON is not legally under the GBC body even if he does represent the parampara.
PP: There are many other practical concerns, like initiations....
GS: I don't think those practical details are what is shaking the movement. What is disturbing the devotees is the idea that taking instruction outside of ISKCON or accepting someone outside of ISKCON as a siksa-guru is wrong, that it is against ISKCON, that it minimizes Prabhupada....
BP: They also fear it points to a deficiency in ISKCON...
PP: You could address all the doubts people have in writing, in a paper. I am not personally so concerned that we stick to this format.
TKG: But sometimes people need to have things spelled out clearly for them. And even though the one item may actually be inclusive of four others, people may not get the message.
LS: For some, clarification of all 22 points will be necessary.
BP: I have a doubt. It seems to me that the essential disagreement that has arisen is not a philosophical problem as much as it is an emotional problem. And if we cy to discuss and resolve it philosophically, it will not have any true effect because, again, the issue is essentially emotional.
PP: But it has to be dimmed philosophically.
BP: I think that's a good challenge for this group: how can we ensure that the level of discussion...how can we push it up to the philosophical level and remove it from the emotional level.
PP: By doing the work now. Don't leave it until the GBC meetings. The GBC meetings is an emotionally charged time with all kinds of pressures. It's just the wrong time to do this kind of work.
GS: I have a request, and I think I speak for all of us. We are not going to be coerced or intimidated into doing something that we think is against Srila Prabhupada and the best interest of ISKCON and the whole parampara. Only if we're convinced that we're doing something wrong will we change.
Devotees should understand that we're not going to respond to intimidation. We're going to fight this till the end. And to convince us, they have to come to the philosophical platform. Either they should convince us or we should convince them. We're not going to respond to any other tactic.
TKG: For instance, one tactic is: "There's a resolution from 1982." If they continue to pull out that resolution without examining philosophically whether it holds water or not, it won't work. That is not the way to convince us. It's a stick. Police-state tactics. But if you're willing to evaluate clearly whether that resolution is actually philosophically sound or not, then, according to the conclusion of [the debate] I'll become convinced or you'll become convinced. But if you just say, "Resolution of 1982" without discussing whether it's valid or not, that's a stick!
Therefore, last year we put forward a proposal that no legislation should be passed against guru, sadhu, and sastra. Do you know what happened? It was shelved They said they didn't feel they could decide on this. That should give you some idea about what the real problem is.
BVPM: A little sidepoint. This meeting, is it to gather material for the GBC body to deal with in a subcommittee or some delegated body? Or is it for a particular group of devotees, or for the devotees worldwide?
Now this draft criticizes these devotees for violating a GBC resolution. But I've also seen the GBC make resolutions time after time, as with the Bhavananda issue, and when it's made, everyone in the GBC is happy. But as soon as it leaves the room and hits the world, within three days it's rejected by everyone.
So how is this issue practically going to be resolved? Sometimes senior devotees don't care for what the GBC body decides. How will this discussion address and remove the difficulties?
PP: What I understand Naveen Krsna prabhu wants us to do is discuss. He's asked Lokanath Maharaja and myself to help him to conduct a dialogue and circulate the results amongst the GBC. Afterr that, we have suggested that some sort of commission be established to come to a proposal by further discussion. All that work should be done before February, and then in February there will be a resolution.
Indradyumna Swami (IS): I think we should communicate to the society as quickly as possible that the views generally attributed to these devotees are not theirs. We should accomplish that. It's reached a crisis stage now.
I would say that the most important thing would be to produce a written response that could be circulated. That would allay a lot of fear in the society, a lot of suspicion, prejudice, etc. Then this meeting could actually carry things one step closer towards a solution and remove a lot of anxiety.
TKG: We could just go through the points attributed to us and comment on them. You could say that you collected statements from very critical and disturbed people, synthesized them and presented them to us to learn our actual position.
IS: Maharaja, I've always said that we should talk about the facts, rather than just the rumors. That brings it to a different level, a more Vaisnava level. Then there can be Vaisnava relations while discussing. If we can remove the rumors, we may be able to remove some of the emotions and then we can debate. Not in this session, but on some level of ISKCON we should discuss the real subject matter.
LS: There are long-term solutions that have to be dealt with - that is what Giriraj Maharaja is propounding - but at the same time, the emergency, the emotions, so many things said and speculated ten thousand miles away from the actual spot. So to me, both should be dealt with, the philosophical and at the same time the emergency problems.
BP: One other thing that we should do is discuss the role of Com in creating the problem. I read something that Suhotra Swami wrote recently that was so disturbing. Basically he quotes this 1982 resolution, then he quotes TKG and GS's speeches at Visvarupa Mahotsava, and then he immediately calls for a count as to how many GBC men thought these two should resign. "Come on, GBC men, should they resign?" Just right out of nowhere he's moving with this kind of speech to bring out the noose. No one thought to ask these two men why they spoke in that fashion. Immediately, "Come, raise your hands if you think they should resign." I think it was so improper and it exposed the un-Vaisnava nature of this media of Com. I think we should put together a strong statement saying it must be stopped. I think it's one of the most disastrous things going on.
And repeating gossip as well. Badarinarayana prabhu wrote a message which airs radical and inaccurate accusations about what's going on in Vrindavan. Then two weeks later we read, "Oh, I am sorry. I didn't mean the letter should go on Com." No personal apologies to those that may have been hurt by the message. No consideration that people tend to believe what they read. I don't think the apology repaired the damage.
Com seems to be a facility for certain elements of ISKCON's business, but its use in heavy and delicate dialogues seems to lead to improprieties.
GS: Many years ago devotees asked Srila Prabhupada if we should install telex in ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada replied, "No. You'll just use it for international gossip."
PP: We have to establish what we're going to do here. Com is a GBC problem and the GBC members should deal with it. It's not an issue for me. I sympathize but I don't think we can spend a lot of time talking on it. It's not our concern.
GS: I am in favor of going through the version of our critics, what they think we believe. Our position and our activities have been so misrepresented that until some of the prejudice is removed they won't be able to hear or discuss philosophy.
IS: This meeting is to air the issue. And then take the next step and the next step so then when you get to Mayapura, it can be dealt with...
PP: Yes. So with everyone's permission, I would like to ask one of your group to respond.
TKG: Okay, we'll start. Point 1, "Acceptance of a spiritual authority", Giriraj Maharaja has already responded. Now go ahead and comment on point 1.1.A:
"To understand raga-marga a qualified ragatmika devotee is needed as a guide. ISKCON devotees are still too neophyte to give this level of guidance, therefore we are forced to look for guidance from other members of Srila Prabhupada's family, i.e. his Godbrothers and God-nephews."
GS: I don't think any of us went to His Holiness Narayana Maharaja either looking for a siksa-guru or looking for guidance on the practice of raganuga-bhakti. In my own case, when I returned to India after seven years, Narayana Maharaja happened to be staying in the ISKCON Guest House in the room next to me. I only had a general impression that he's a nice sadhu. We would meet and discuss krsna-katha and we became friends. Siksa-guru was the last thing in the world that would have entered my mind. But I felt two things very strongly - that he was a very sincere well-wisher of ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada and that he was very learned in the Vaisnava literature of our sampradaya.
So again, the very idea that we have gone outside ISKCON looking for siksa on raganuga-bhakti because we didn't think we could get it within ISKCON is a complete misunderstanding of the history of our relationship with Narayana Maharaja.
PP: Would anyone else like to say something?
TKG: Just as a philosophical point: We don't say that to understand raga-marga one needs a qualified ragatmika devotee as a guide. None of us has ever said it and we don't believe it. A ragatmika devotee is not an advanced sadhaka. He is a resident of Goloka. Even an advanced sadhaka can be very helpful.
DS: And also, there are two ways in which you actually advance in Krsna consciousness. One is by practice and one is by mercy. Certainly it's generally the process to go to advanced Vaisnavas to learn, but I don't think, nor have I heard any members here say that ISKCON devotees are still too neophyte to give this level of guidance and thus we were forced to look for guidance outside of Prabhupada's family. I've never heard anybody say that. I've only heard the greatest regard expressed for the ISKCON Vaisnavas.
Radhanath Swami (RS): The question arises whether you all believe that just by serving Prabhupada you can attain the platform of raga-bhakti, or is it necessary to go to someone who can particularly teach you the procedure. Just by serving Prabhupada's mission, without going outside to a rasika bhakta who's on that platform, can't Prabhupada's mercy bring you to that platform of raganuga bhakti?
TKG: Yes. Definitely. Everyone will say yes.
RS: So there's no need to...
TKG: Just because the answer is yes doesn't necessarily mean that there is no need. Because in addition to guru's mercy, there's a process whereby one hears from an advanced devotee, sadhu-sanga. That's part of sadhana, sadhu-sanga. So even if one will get his guru's mercy by serving the mission, he should nevertheless perform sadhana. If an advanced devotee can help one better understand the philosophy and better perform sadhana, that will also help one obtain the mercy of one's guru.
BP: Association of an advanced devotee also comes by the mercy of guru.
DS: I think we can all say that the essential element for advancement in Krsna consciousness is guru, serving Srila Prabhupada's mission. And one who does that can achieve all perfection. And how Prabhupada reciprocates could be in different ways. I never think that devotees who don't have Narayana Maharaja's association are less. Actually, I see people like Harikesa Maharaja and others who are giving their blood to Prabhupada's mission. I've never heard anybody say in any way that these sincere devotees are disadvantaged. But I think that this is maybe something that Prabhupada arranged for us. If anything, I personally feel that maybe because I am less advanced Prabhupada made this arrangement for me.
BP: If you feel that Krsna is making a specific arrangement for you, then you feel pressure to take advantage of that arrangement. If one doesn't feel that Krsna is making this arrangement, then he won't feel the need to see a devotee such as Narayana Maharaja.
LS: What you are practicing, trying to get the association of Narayana Maharaja, is sadhana.
BP: Panch-anga sadhana bhakti, sadhu-sanga. Krsna bhakti jana mula hai sadhu sanga. It's the root of bhakti.
GS: The five basic elements which begin with sadhu-sanga and bhagavad-sravana. Sadhu-sanga is defined by Rupa Goswami as associating with devotees who are like-minded, more advanced than you, and affectionate. And bhagavad-sravana, the definition of hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam given by Rupa Gosvami is to hear from advanced devotees. These processes are helpful all the way from sraddha up to prema.
BP: Prema bhakti hoilo tenho punar mukhya anga - right to the top the same principle is there. From the bottom to the top sadhu-sanga is the essence of advancement.
LS: For myself, I've never felt such need in my life to go outside for association. Even Narayana Maharaja, I have a very good relationship with him, but I never felt like going. I think that is the case with many ISKCON devotees. Are we lacking something?
DS: I would make one point: one is lacking if there's a misconception that you don't need sadhana to advance in Krsna consciousness.
PP: Would you say that if one avoided intimate association with devotees like Narayana Maharaja because of institutional considerations, one would be blocking his advancement?
BP: We all feel that it would be unfortunate if such a condition was forced upon a devotee. It would be also against an instruction Prabhupada gave directly to Narayana Maharaja, against the best interest of ISKCON, and against siddhanta.
GS: To come back to the first point about looking outside ISKCON for siksa. When I returned to Bombay, I heard that Narayana Maharaja had lived with us in Bombay on another occasion and had gone every day from Juhu to downtown Bombay for more than a month, sitting all day in a court room to testify in the M. M. De case. In his old age, day after day, only to defend Prabhupada and ISKCON. And when he was again staying with us to have some treatment at Hinduja Hospital, I just did not have that conception that he's "outside ISKCON."
PP: Does anybody have any questions on this or can we go to the next point?
"ISKCON should be broad in its vision and allow its members to associate and receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya."
Perhaps this is already answered.
TKG: Well, there's a mistake here. It says that we feel it is needed to open the door for all devotees to receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. I don't agree with that. Why? Because some of the bona fide, loyal members of the Gaudiya sampradaya are not loyal to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. And one of the specific things which we tested and have seen again and again is that this particular sadhu, Narayana Maharaja, is very loyal to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. That's probably the reason why we did not hesitate to continue visiting him whereas we might have in other cases. In other words, we saw continuous proof that this person was loyal to our guru and institution. And that helped us increase our faith.
BP: It increased our faith both in Prabhupada and in the institution.
LS: I'm just saying, quoting you, Narayana Maharaja is loyal, so he becomes part of ....
GS: No, I don't think we've reached that definition. But I think in the case of Narayana Maharaja, we, who gradually began to associate with him, who have been serving Prabhupada and ISKCON for many years, and who do have loyalty to Prabhupada and ISKCON within us, were especially attracted and enlivened when we saw the same in him. But I wouldn't say that someone is absolutely excluded from giving bona fide instruction if he doesn't have the same sense or service to Prabhupada and ISKCON that Narayana Maharaja has.
TKG: But personally I wouldn't want to hear from him very much.
GS: Yes, I wouldn't either. But I don't think we can make an absolute statement.
BP: This point, which is supposedly ours, says that "ISKCON should be broad in its vision and allow its members to associate and receive instruction from any qualified, bona fide member of the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya."
TKG: I cannot agree with this. Unless he was loyal to Prabhupada and ISKCON, I would not want to hear from him.
GS: But I would raise another point. To what extent is it the business of the GBC to try to regulate such instruction? The GBC tried to regulate or certify Vaisnava literature through the ISKCON Review Board. This proved problematic because there was question as to how expert the reviewers were to detect apasiddhanta or breach of Vaisnava etiquette. For example, when Hari Sauri's first diary came out, things were published that shouldn't have appeared in terms of Prabhupada's direct instruction and in terms of Vaisnava etiquette. And the book having the official, GBC ISKCON Review Board certificate put us in an awkward position, as much as the GBC was in an awkward position when the official GBC-approved gurus fell down.
So I think it is neither realistic nor practical nor advisable for the GBC to try to take the position of assessing Gaudiya Vaisnavas and certifying that one is good for association and another not.
Srila Prabhupada has given so many instructions about association in the Nectar of Instruction and other places. If devotees have questions about the application of the principles, they can ask their gurus or any senior devotees in whom they have faith. It is really a question whether the GBC wants to start certifying Vaisnavas not under the authority of the GBC and trying to control or stop devotees from meeting them. In the case of the Review Board, even if we did not certify a book, there was no way to stop the devotees from reading it. They ended up reading whatever they wanted, approved or not.
So this is a very critical issue, whether the GBC should even try to certify people not under the GBC's authority and legislate the devotees' association.
TKG: I have a point. 1.3, last line, is false: "Srila Prabhupada gave him specific instructions to help us and we should therefore accept him as a siksa guru for ISKCON devotees."
We are made to say that Narayana Maharaja should officially be accepted as a siksa-guru for ISKCON devotees. We never said that. It's a personal choice. We never suggested that as an institution we accept him as a siksa-guru. We don't even recommend it to individuals, what to speak of the society as a whole.
PP: We quote Hrdayananda Maharaja. He says, "For reasons about which I shall not speculate, HH Narayana Maharaja did not fully surrender to Srila Prabhupada," Would you have any comments about that? And then he says, "We cannot surrender to him as we surrender to Prabhupada, if we are to maintain Srila Prabhupada's real position."
TKG: You mean that leaving his guru's institution would show his surrender to Prabhupada? Is that the implication? Leaving his guru's order would have shown his surrender to Prabhupada?
DS: I think it reflects a concern Giriraj Maharaja previously mentioned, that he's unauthorized because he's not in a diksa relationship with Srila Prabhupada.
TKG: [sarcastically] His sin is that he didn't take initiation from Prabhupada. Therefore he should recognize his sin and disqualification and at least give up the institution his Guru Maharaja established and requested him to serve within. He should then join ISKCON. That would please Prabhupada and show his real surrender to Prabhupada. He should have done that instead of maintaining the order of his guru to work for the benefit of his guru's institution and simultaneously help ISKCON, something which his guru didn't ask him to do but which he did because he was surrendered to Prabhupada. He took a double burden.
PP: I've heard that Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was accepted by all the devotees as acarya and there's talk that he spoke that in the future a self-effulgent acarya would appear and that Srila Prabhupada is that self-effulgent acarya and that Narayana Maharaja did not recognize him as such. This is an argument against accepting Narayana Maharaja as a siksa-guru.
TKG: I think he does accept Prabhupada as a self-effulgent acarya, and that's why he devotes so much of his time to ISKCON. Although his time is totally occupied by his own institution's activities and preaching, still he tries to devote one or two hours a day for giving assistance to ISKCON. Why? He recognizes ISKCON as the actual branch of the Caitanya tree that is spreading Krsna consciousness worldwide. He also recognizes Prabhupada as the person whom Caitanya Mahaprabhu has blessed to do this, and he's hoping that by assisting and serving in some way this self-effulgent acarya, he'll get some mercy from him.
RS: Are you in the mood that you are surrendering to Narayana Maharaja? In other words, do you serve his instructions or just receive knowledge from him? Do you believe you're surrendering to him as you surrender to Prabhupada?
TKG: Not in the same way. I'm surrendered to Prabhupada in every single possible way. Narayana Maharaja is not involved in much of my practical service within ISKCON. I go to him to better understand the sastric teachings. And I accept these teachings from him. That's what my surrender entails. And I love him and appreciate him for all the help he's giving me. I find his help extremely beneficial and therefore hold him as very dear to me.
Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja don't compete in my mind. My surrender to Prabhupada is total. It involves every single aspect of my life in every single way.
RS: Are you approaching Narayana Maharaja to surrender to him or do you feel that by approaching him he helps you in your surrender to Prabhupada?
TKG: You should get the definition of siksa-guru.
BP: In Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila.
RS: This is what they are specifically asking.
DS: What is a siksa-guru? I would say he is one who helps you to increase faith in your diksa-guru. I don't think any of us would develop a relationship with Narayana Maharaja if that wasn't the case.
TKG: It brings me closer. I find myself getting even closer to Prabhupada with his help. I don't feel so much that I'm surrendering to two different people.
BP: Then who's the person to whom you're surrendering?
TKG: It's to Prabhupada, and he's helping me.
BP: The spiritual master doesn't say surrender to me, he says surrender to Krsna. He is Krsna's representative. The diksa-guru and siksa-guru are Krsna's representatives. And naturally, as one surrenders to Krsna, one's appreciation of Prabhupada grows more because his realization of Prabhupada's gift increases as the depth of his realization increases.
TKG: That's a better answer.
BP: This question is irksome, because of the way it's put. If we love our father, can we also love our older brother? Or our uncle or mother or child. As if by serving or surrendering or having affection for our uncle or older brother, which is really how I look at Narayana Maharaja, our affection for our father is hindered. Because Narayana Maharaja's instructions increase our Krsna consciousness, his instructions naturally also increase our love for Prabhupada. It's irksome when it appears that there is inherently a disloyalty or duality or contradiction. The Caitanya-caritamrta doesn't explain siksa- and diksa-guru in a competitive way.
TKG: Thank you. This question is unfair, and it practically implies that you can only love your father and can't love your brothers or anyone else.
BP: Many detractors of the current system in ISKCON say the same thing: there's too much attention being paid to the spiritual masters; not enough given to Prabhupada. It's the same thing: affection for one's guru subtracts from affection for Prabhupada. It's the same myopic point of view.
GS: I know from years of experience in Bombay that Srila Prabhupada had many relationships with people outside of the managerial structure of ISKCON. Prabhupada did not consider their relationship with him to be dependent on their subordination to the managerial structure of ISKCON.
?: Just one point of clarification: when we speak of acaryas in our line, like in the Bhagavad-gita we have a list. We see Srila Prabhupada as the most recent acarya in the parampara disciplic succession that we call the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya.
GS: But even Srila Prabhupada said that there may be other acaryas who are not listed. It's the most prominent ones who are listed. One can't say that, for example, because His Holiness Kesava Maharaja doesn't come in our list, in our edition of Bhagavad-gita, that he's not a bona fide acarya, and that Narayana Maharaja should have therefore left his service.
TKG: I wouldn't think that Prabhupada would have appreciated it. That's my assessment. Somebody else could say he should have, but we'd all be speculating. There's another thing you could say in terms of service. You could argue, why didn't Narayana Maharaja do more service to Prabhupada's mission when Prabhupada was present? The fact is that it wasn't as necessary when Prabhupada was present.
BP; Prabhupada personally asked him in the last weeks to help. Bhakti Charu Swami even confirms that in Bengali Prabhupada requested Narayana Maharaja to help his disciples.
PP: Perhaps you can just comment on the opposing position here in terms of siksa-gurus.
TKG: The essence of the point is again based on only one instruction of Prabhupada's: "Don't have anything to do with the Gaudiya Matha. They must not have read Giriraj Maharaja's paper. At least they could have considered his arguments and addressed them. Giriraj Maharaja clearly brought out that Prabhupada's instructions regarding association with the Gaudiya Math were based on time, place, and circumstance. Where there were unfavorable persons and unfavorable instances Prabhupada would say, "Don't associate." And other times, for example, in Visakapatnam, he took me and another 25 devotees and we lived with Puri Maharaja for about a week. If there was any way to tell me not to associate with Puri Maharaja, that wasn't a good way to do it. There were many other instances. He wrote me a letter to go to Bangladesh and work with his Godbrother. He brought Sridhar Maharaja over and had Sridhar Maharaja sit in the seat with him, sleep in his bed while he slept on the floor. He went over a number of times to visit Sridhar Maharaja.
BP: Did Prabhupada actually request Sridhar Maharaja to live in Mayapura at the end?
TKG: Well, I need to find out more about that, but I know he told me specifically that we should invite Puri Maharaja to come with us and preach all over the world.
?: What year was that?
TKG: It was in the early seventies. He told Narayana Maharaja the same thing.
We should see the individual member of the Gaudiya Math's relationship or position or mood towards Prabhupada, ISKCON, its leaders etc. That's how Prabhupada based his statements, and that's what we should do. And it's not an open declaration of war against everyone in the whole Gaudiya institution for the next 10,000 years - until at last they join ISKCON. Do you believe Prabhupada would have ever wanted such a thing? It's just not Prabhupada's mood. He was protecting us when there was real need of protection. Puri Maharaja was never hostile or inimical to Prabhupada; nor was Narayana Maharaja. These negative statements were made against specific persons, and sometimes Prabhupada made sweeping statements. But at other times Prabhupada spoke and acted very, very differently. Including during his final pastimes.
Trying to force us to accept the "do not associate" point as absolute is wrong. Giriraj Maharaja wrote a whole paper on this.
PP: Any other points here?
TKG: We have to deal with facts. Devotees tend to just keep saying, "I know Prabhupada's mood." Well, so do I. You can't use a stick on me and say, "O come on, everyone knows." That's not an answer. There are letters, there are incidents. It can't just be, "O come on, everyone knows that this is really what Prabhupada wanted."
GS: Again we come to the obvious fact that Srila Prabhupada said different things about his Godbrothers. He did write the letter to one disciple that he could accept Sridhar Maharaja as siksa-guru. He wrote another letter in which he said he was going to bring ten disciples from America to study the books of the Gosvamis at Bon Maharaja's institute.
TKG: And Prabhupada had Jayapataka Maharaja and Acyutananda live for one year in Madhava Maharaja's institution.
GS: So we have evidence that Prabhupada said and did different things in different situations. So the real question is one of application. And again the question arises, is it for the GBC to legislate?
PP: The position of your critics is: "One may go to any bona fide source for detailed information but ISKCON devotees should only spiritually surrender to Srila Prabhupada and his disciplic representatives."
This position is taken against what is perceived as your view:
"Just as devotees consult outside authorities on fund raising, printing, etc., one should be permitted to take instruction from spiritual authorities outside of ISKCON."
BP: How about Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura?
PP: That's Srila Prabhupada's disciplic succession. Those are his gurus.
BP: It says disciplic representatives.
PP: Yes. That'll be before.
GS: But what about their disciplic representatives? Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
PP: Next point: "Principle of Association of Sadhus"
"The principle of following the order of the guru is the highest principle of all, and Srila Prabhupada's instruction was to not mix very intimately with his Godbrothers. The very institutional integrity of ISKCON is dependent on following this instruction very rigidly, maintaining Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority directly and through his disciples."
TKG: Institutional laws should follow scriptures, not contradict them. In other words, why should we pass a law which goes against scripture. Is that good for a religious organization to do?
GS: The first duty of the GBC body is to uphold the will of Srila Prabhupada, which in turn represents the will of scripture and parampara. So if we pass resolutions that don't really reflect Srila Prabhupada's instructions, it's not good.
TKG: The same problem comes again. The last line here says, "maintain Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority, directly and through his disciples." May I know what happened to scripture and sadhu? We are now throwing out the most fundamental principle that Prabhupada taught - guru, sadhu, and sastra. Now there's only guru. Or is it that Prabhupada's disciples are the only sadhus? And no mention of scripture. Is this dangerous or not?
LS: Sadhu is anywhere, sadhu means a saintly person.
TKG: [sarcastically] No, it means a saintly person in ISKCON. There's a new definition now.
TKG: "Srila Prabhupada as the exclusive source of spiritual authority and through his disciples." What about Krsna? That's what it says here.
GS: It suggests Prabhupada is God, the origin of the sampradaya.
TKG: This is obviously the way to make Prabhupada the center of the Centennial - destroy his teachings.
GS: But the Prabhupada Centennial wants to avoid personality cult.
BP: Another point about point 5. I agree there's not a complete parallel between professional help and spiritual help and that the surrender required in both are not completely parallel, but the surrender is not completely unparalleled either. Even when we get knowledge from professionals - and I've see this with devotees who go to professionals - they do surrender to some degree. They adopt their mannerisms, their way of talking, and their teachings. So that is surrender. Surrender is the Vedic principle of getting knowledge - you have to surrender.
GS: There's a verse in the Bhagavatam that an intelligent person should follow the actions of empowered personalities when their actions are consistent with their instructions. Here the acaryas comment that intelligent means that one should weigh the situation before carrying out the instructions. And they give the example of Krsna's direct instruction to Arjuna to kill Asvattama, which Arjuna, considering the situation, did not do.
So I think not only in relation to Narayana Maharaja's instructions, but also in relation to the multiplicity of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, we are required to use our intelligence. Otherwise I've come to the situation that we're in now, where someone takes one instruction of Srila Prabhupada. "Do not mix with my Godbrothers," and without considering the situation, without the exercise of intelligence, without seeing the whole range of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, like a fanatic, wants to make a campaign. So that is not intelligent, and that is not how we are supposed to accept the instructions of authorities. Intelligence is required to reconcile all of Prabhupada's different instructions in different situations and the instructions of other acaryas as well.
BVPM: On the principle of the siksa-guru, we also have to understand that there are different levels. So many times we just want to say the siksa-guru is all or nothing, but Bhaktivinoda Thakura points out that we have three levels of siksa-gurus: we're dealing with the adi-guru, the Founder-acarya, who everyone has a relationship with, and the diksa-guru and siksa-gurus who specifically are dear to us and inspire us in serving the mission of the adi-guru, the Founder-acarya. Then there are the senior Vaisnavas, the teachers. They also are siksa-gurus.
So just because someone may come to the level of teaching us in spiritual subject matter, that doesn't mean that it inhibits our relationships with our own guru. Because there are different levels of gurus.
BP: Also in the 11th Canto, so many siksa-gurus are accepted. Bees, ants, birds, prostitutes - but it doesn't mean that we surrender to them completely. But we take their instructions.
TKG: Things Prabhupada told me regarding ISKCON I do. Anything Narayana Maharaja may ever comment about ISKCON, I may think if it's valid or not based on whatever I've learned from Prabhupada.
BP: He says, "You know better than I how to manage ISKCON."
LS: Soon there will no longer be any senior Gaudiya Vaisnavas on the planet. Only a few more left, and as they also depart, then who are we left with? What I've understood from devotees who are going to Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja is that, while these men are on the planet, a lot of deeper questions that Prabhupada didn't specifically deal with could be answered and be permanently on record within our ISKCON movement.
Then there will be no need to go outside ISKCON. We'll then be self-sufficient.
PP: I'm not sure if it's properly covered later on, but one of the points I haven't heard addressed is Prabhupada's statements that, if they speak one word different than me, there will then be chaos.
TKG: Even if it's philosophical, if Narayana Maharaja says something I see as different from Prabhupada - then it must be reconciled. Prabhupada's words are the standard. It's always been like that with Maharaja. It's amazing. He'll say something, like on this issue of the jiva, and he'll insist there's no way your Guru Maharaja and I can differ on this. We can't differ. Even in philosophy he has to show the reconciliation because he knows our faith is in Prabhupada. As Prabhupada's disciples we're bound to follow Prabhupada. And Narayana Maharaja, as a teacher, has to show us how to reconcile what our acarya and guru teach. One cannot teach something different. Otherwise faith will be broken and all will be lost. He's so much more careful than ISKCON devotees are about this.
Also, does it only mean that one word changed from the Gaudiya Math will cause havoc? Prabhupada was furious when he saw what the Sanskrit editors sometimes did to his books. He became so upset. He said their little bit of intelligence, their little bit of Sanskrit knowledge, could spoil everything. So this point about "changing one word" doesn't apply only to the Gaudiya Math, it applies to every one of us. If I start changing Prabhupada's teachings, it's going to disturb the whole group of people who listen to me. Because Narayana Maharaja is more advanced, he's more aware of the necessity of us maintaining faith in Prabhupada, so he will never say anything different. For anything that could appear different, he says, "What does your Guru Maharaja teach on this point?" Before he even opens his mouth on it - "What does your Guru Maharaja teach?" Because he cannot contradict the guru. If he does, the disciples will immediately go. In his mind, Prabhupada is our guru. It's very, very clear in his mind, and it's clear in our mind.
BP: I sit on a chair when I talk to him. Generally he sits on the bed and I sit on a chair next to him.
TKG: He's our teacher.
GS: I'd like to comment on this oft-quoted statement. I looked up the original quote in Prabhupada lilamrta: "If any Godbrother says even one word different from what I'm saying, there will be great confusion among you." I believe that our ability to be confused depends on our lack of spiritual knowledge. Even with Prabhupada we could become confused. When he explained initiation and said, "Initiation means you accept me like God," there was great confusion. To the extent that we don't really understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and the parampara, we can get confused, and not only if the Godbrothers say something different. What Prabhupada says in one place may also be different from what Prabhupada says in another place! It can create great confusion, and there has been great confusion in the movement many times. The best protection against confusion is clear philosophical understanding.
If we are so afraid of becoming confused we will never be able to deal with anyone who has anything to say about spiritual or even material life. We'll have to remain completely insulated because we're afraid we will become confused. If we're going to act as preachers it's our duty to be deeply knowledgeable in the scriptures and Prabhupada's teachings so we can interact with others without becoming confused.
LS: I know devotees who go to ISKCON Kumbha Mela and get confused.
GS: Yes. Lower-level devotees. We should save ourselves from becoming confused by becoming higher-level devotees and understanding the philosophy better. We should become convinced.
BP: And please put that quote that Srila Prabhupada spoke in 1967 in the perspective of 1967: Haight-Ashbury, no books, new devotees, and like-minded Westerners.
PP: Can you comment on this point in 1.7:
"Just as there may be a tendency towards fanaticism in ISKCON devotees, there is also a tendency towards sahajiya. If the principle of keeping within ISKCON for spiritual guidance is diluted then many devotees may fall victim to various kinds of apa-sampradaya"?
PP: Some people are very fanatical about keeping within ISKCON. They associate going outside to include going outside to anyone, the babajis in Radha-kunda and so on. In other words, those who are very fanatical about staying within the institution tend to lump in any sort of ....
GS: How do you know there are no sahajiyas in ISKCON? You don't remember Jayatirtha?
PP: Yes, of course.
TKG: You know what the rumor is? That Narayana Maharaja was playing on his flute and we were wearing sarees. People spread this rumor all over this place. Do you know that this was talked about by everyone and heard by everyone? Did anybody stop them from doing that? Why isn't the GBC incensed by that?
I have a comment about the next statement:
"This may include consciously choosing to meditate on a particular rasa, studying books or sections of books dealing specifically with that rasa, modifying one's attendance at the temple program, choosing services within ISKCON which facilitate the proper mood, etc. "
Who says that we are doing this? This is another misstatement. I've never heard of anyone choosing services within ISKCON which facilitate the proper mood of one's rasa.
PP: This is a speculation based on the observation of the activities of devotees within this group.
TKG: Can you tell us about that? Can you give me one example of devotees choosing services to facilitate their rasa. Can you give me one example?
PP: We've heard that Giriraj Maharaja perhaps is giving up GBC responsibilities in certain areas.
TKG: And how does it facilitate his particular rasa?
?: A mood, not the particular rasa.
PP: This is all related to the gopi-bhava club idea.
TKG: I must have a chivalrous rasa with Krsna and that's why I fight all day.
DS: As for the gopi-bhava club, I don't think we ever meet. This is the first time this month we've met.
TKG: Attendance at the program.
PP: Because they observe - this is what we were hearing - that since coming to Vrindavan Giriraj Maharaja doesn't come to the morning program, doesn't attend the class. So there's speculation...
GS: I have been sick with kidney stones and bronchitis. Still I gave my class on Nectar of Instruction every afternoon. But I cannot take the cold air in the morning.
DS: Why does this refer only to us? So many ISKCON leaders and senior devotees don't attend. It's not a question of associating with Narayana Maharaja.
PP: One of the concerns I've heard is related to ISKCON devotees who are pursuing sadhana strictly according to the standard ISKCON program, morning program, preaching activities, etc. They are feeling that their process is being called into doubt, that they're missing out on something, and that when they are ready they can pursue raga-marga.
BP: What are they afraid of? That preaching and going to the morning program is low-class and that when they become more advanced the symptom is that they won't go to the morning program anymore and....
PP: The concern I've heard is that there is a de-emphasis on the standard of just carrying on the mission. "If one simply focuses one's energy on carrying on the mission and follows the practical sadhana etc., then whatever is needed will be adjusted." There's no need for any conscious effort to pursue the raga-marga.
TKG: What is raga-marga? It's also sadhana. I think that they have to read the first paper Giriraj Maharaja wrote about raganuga-sadhana-bhakti in "Following in the Footsteps."
GS: It says in Srimad Bhagavatam that by serving the pure devotees who are free from vice, a great service is done. And by such service one develops an affinity for the messages of Vasudeva. By serving the mission, by serving the guru - Prabhupada explains in the purport - one develops the qualities of the guru and the principal quality is attraction for hearing and chanting about Krsna. If we're really serving the mission, the result should be that we develop taste for hearing and chanting.
So that's the first point. Now if one develops taste, then naturally he'll hear and chant more, which is our main duty, and one will become more and more qualified....
BP: What's the recommendation? They say it should come automatically, that you shouldn't consciously endeavor. What happens if something does come automatically? What are you supposed to do? What do you do if something comes automatically by the mercy of Prabhupada? Should the thing that has come automatically then be neglected? If one does, by the mercy of guru and Krsna, get a taste for hearing and chanting, what does one do then?
TKG: Prabhupada told me in Bombay, "Actually our only business is to sit in Mayapura and chant 24 hours per day. Actually we have nothing else to do. That is the goal of this movement." Then he said, "But unfortunately you have no taste. Therefore I have to engage you and the others in building so many temples." In 1970, August or so, Prabhupada told me that.
PP: Maybe one of you would like to address this criticism against devotees' efforts to hear and chant about the more intimate activities of the Lord and His consorts. There's a comparison made between the activities today and the gopi-bhava club of 1975. What is the difference?
BP: First of all let's see what they did, the so-called gopi-bhava club. What were their activities? Then we can compare.
TKG: They used to get together, men and women, and they would read only from exclusive sections of Prabhupada's books which are about Radha-Krsna lila.
BP: Do we get together, all men and women, and read about exclusive sections of anything? Prabhupada's books or any other books?
TKG: Bhurijana teaches Bhagavad-gita. Giriraj Maharaja teaches Nectar of Devotion, Nectar of Instruction, and some Caitanya-caritamrta, I've taught NOD, Brahma-samhita. But there's another difference. What was the main alarming factor that disturbed Prabhupada?
BP: . Were you with Prabhupada then?
TKG: Yes, for the whole discussion. What was the thing that disturbed Prabhupada most?
GS: The influence of the babajis at Radha-kunda.
TKG: It was poison coming from the babajis at Radha-kunda.
But this issue is our visiting Narayana Maharaja. Is there a similarity between Narayana Maharaja and the babajis at Radha-kunda? It would be interesting for the ISKCON devotees to make an examination of Narayana Maharaja's views about the Radha-kunda babajis. I don't think it would be possible to find anyone in ISKCON who has such a critical view of the babajis at Radha-kunda as Narayana Maharaja.
I also don't think that any of us would be able to defeat the arguments of the babajis at Radha-kunda as Narayana Maharaja does. Some of the best ISKCON devotees could get bewildered if they ever went into their midst. It's happened. Yet Narayana Maharaja has the capacity to protect our siddhanta by his powerful scholarship and his historical knowledge of our movement.
BP: Yes, that's specifically why I started going to him. So many philosophies float around Vrindavan because we are surrounded by babajis. So I started going to ask him what is the bhakti-siddhanta of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's line.
And now it is such a great loss. I cannot do that. It's truly a great loss. And not only on babaji issues. When Maharaja leaves there's not going to be anybody left. And if you want to see apasampradaya enter, you'll see it enter then. Because few will be here to detect and defend.
And I'm not encouraged to question him anymore. A great loss.
TKG: There's another difference. Then it was 1975. Now it's 1995. The devotees who were doing this had joined about one year, two years, three years prior. Now we're not getting into the same thing, exclusively reading more intimate topics. I have very little time to read anything. Second, we're not hearing from the babajis at Radha-kunda, and third, most of us have been devotees for more than 25 years.
That raises the point of some people, "Don't you think that your interest in the subject is premature?" Now I'm going to be fifty. So at what age will it be appropriate? First of all, is it by age that you can judge when someone is ready? But even from age point of view, I might have another 10 or 15 years by nature's arrangement. So how do you determine when one is ready by age? Is it only by the age of your body or the date of your initiation? By the date of initiation, it's been 27 or 26 years. I am nearly fifty years of age. And what about Indradyumna Maharaja's disciple Vraja Lila, who left her body recently here in Vrindavan? She was only 19. Was it the right time for her to take interest in these topics? Should we have told her, "Mataji, it's only been three years since you've been initiated and you're only nineteen. Wait for your next life." Is that our philosophy?
So these arguments about immaturity and the similarity between us and the gopi-bhava club are neither accurate nor parallel. They are unfair.
BP: I'd like to hear what they mean by "Prabhupada criticized ISKCON devotees for making extraneous efforts to learn raga-marg." What do they mean by extraneous efforts?
PP: This was directly in reference to the gopi-bhava club.
TKG: I don't know if they knew what raga-marga was.
BVPM: Another major difference is that the devotees here who have taken an interest in this continue to preach. Their preaching is actually expanding because as one advances, naturally the preaching mood and compassion come.
And we see that these devotees are preaching and they're are able to inspire many devotees. They are very strong preaching forces within our movement. I don't see a decrease in their preaching since they've started. In fact, I've seen a great increase.
TKG: It's been seven years since we started visiting Narayana Maharaja and taking instruction from him. Have you seen in those seven years signs of spiritual or moral deviation or decrease in preaching? What is the proof of the dangers?
Now if you say the dangers are not for you but for those who follow you, we'll get into that later. But it wasn't for the followers of the people in the gopi-bhava club that Prabhupada stopped it. It was for they themselves!
You've asked what the differences are between us and the gopi-bhava club so we're giving them to you.
GS. You are spending more time in Vrindavan.
TKG: Prabhupada told me that my goal should be to retire and do nothing but chant the holy name in Vrindavan and Mayapura. That's an order I got from Prabhupada in 1970. This is our goal, he said, but you're not ready. So now, instead of spending one month, a month and a half between Mayapura and Vrindavan, I might spend three. After 26 years, if I've gone from one and a half to three months, is it a bad sign? You know what I do when I come here for the other extra month and a half? I train and teach my disciples. The job of a guru is to train his disciples. I deal with about a hundred disciples over that month and a half when I come here. They take my classes; they go with me on parikrama; I meet with them. I do what a guru is supposed to do.
I come and I write books also and study and teach in the VIHE. I get a chance to associate intimately with my Godbrothers. Now you mean I should only come during the time of the Mayapura-Vrindavan festival?
BP: I would also, in that regard, like to bring up the point that you are fifty-years-old and you have been in the movement for 28 years. Who should regulate how much time you need in Vrindavan? After all, you still responsibly do your duties. Should we also attempt to regulate the schedules of the other senior devotees as well? This one travels too much. This one doesn't read enough. This one only collects money.
And, it's not that the rest of the year you take it easy. You preach in China and Texas.
TKG: Some of the toughest preaching fields in the world. If I don't come here and get some juice - it's dry in China and Texas - there's only cactus growing there. They are tough fields.
BVPM: Also Srila Prabhupada established the Vrindavan and Mayapura centres for the devotees coming from the West so that they could revive or recharge their batteries. This is where the energy is, and from here we go out. He especially wanted Vrindavan to be an educational centre. The American House. He wanted devotees to come here and get educated. Then one goes out for preaching with more vigor. And we see that every time they go out the preaching expands; it's not decreasing.
GS: Maybe something can be said about that Govardhana project...
TKG: We made a statement on GBC Com. It says, "As I already explained in my Vyasa-puja offering this year, in his last days, Srila Prabhupada expressed a strong desire to be taken to Govardhana. Giriraj Swami and I purchased the Govardhana property to fulfill Srila Prabhupada's desire. Although all the funds have come from us, the property stands in the name of ISKCON. We have taken full financial and managerial responsibility for the development and maintenance of the project only as a service to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON, in conjunction with ISKCON-Vrindavan. And we are working to complete the renovations in time to offer the project to Srila Prabhupada and his followers for Srila Prabhupada's Centennial."
PP: There's a specific question about the involvement of some matajis. There seems a sort of gopi-bhava club problem with them. It seems to be more related to the ladies.
BP: You mean they're wearing sarees?
PP: They can address people's concern that they have a sort of clickish type of thing. That they meet together.
And we should speak about Narayana Maharaja and specific comments made at Visvarupa Mahotsava which stated that Narayana Maharaja was as good as Prabhupada.
DS: The matajis working in the Gurukula or who worked in the Gurukula, at least those ladies - they don't talk to anybody about Narayana Maharaja.
GS: I understood from our talk yesterday that you only wanted to ask two things: Vinod Vani about her statements at Visvarupa Mahotsava and Jadurani and Karta about their pet names.
BP: And I thought Jadurani and Karta should also be asked whether they were capturing or converting other ladies by actively preaching and canvassing.
GS: Regarding the pet names, I'd like to explain my understanding. He gave them the pet names. They didn't ask for new names. The implication of the critics is that the new names indicate some sort of gross or subtle initiation. I think that's the real question. He gave them the names; I don't think we can question that. I think the real question is how they understand it and how they perceive it.
PP: The criticism I heard was Jadurani to Syamarani, meaning from Dwaraka-lila to Vrindavan.
?: So there are two parts to it. One is the conception that there is some sort of reinitiation, not reinitiation but additional initiation, taking place, some sort of spiritual bond.
BP: And also a question about disloyalty regarding the name Prabhupada gave them.
[Jadurani dasi, Karta dasi, and Vinod Yani dasi enter.]
Karta dasi (K): May I say something? I was the first person to whom he gave a pet name. It was due to a very simple thing. My name Karta means doer or creator. It is a masculine name. When I first came to Narayana Maharaja years ago and he asked me what my name was, I said Karta. It was interesting for him to hear this name and he laughed and said humorously, "Swami Maharaja had so many disciples that he ran out of names. I would like to call you by another name."
It wasn't anything. We weren't meeting him. We didn't have a relationship. It wasn't really based on anything. It was just because it's funny for him, who is familiar with the language, to call me, "Doer." Like, "Doer, can you come here?" Or, Creator, come and see me."
It was a light meeting, kind of natural. We were not establishing our relationship based on something that I understand about him in the spiritual realm or anything. So he said, in a rather light way, that he will call me another name.
It wasn't until about a year later that he said, "You know, I think I'll call you like this." So he said my name and then, "Will people understand?" And I said, "It will be only for us. Why should it be for anybody else? It's not relevant to anybody else." So that's what happened. It was light.
Of course, our relationship became close, so it might be taken in another way. But it's only an affectionate way of addressing. He actually said, "Gaura Priya Karta." So it's not even replacing. Also, it means a relationship. Like Krsna has many relationships with different devotees. He's Yasoda-nandana, Devaki-nandana, Nanada-nandana, according to the relationship He has with His devotees. In the same way I see it like, well, if you have a siksa-guru (and I take him as siksa-guru), I have a certain way of relating to him. It wasn't something thought up, or an imposition, or adding anything. It was just natural.
TKG: There is another point. Many among those who visit him have names which apparently have nothing to do with Vrindavan-lila. Was that the issue? Did you in this way get your "service name"?
K: Of course not.
BP: I would like to know. How many of the people who go and see him has he given names to?
K: As far as I know, only Jadurani and me.
TKG: After 6 years, all this commotion is about Narayana Maharaja giving pet names to two matajis. Unbelievable!
BP: I just want to add one little thing. At least for myself when I see Karta or Jadurani, I call them Karta or Jadurani.
PP: Do you have anything to say, Jadurani?
Jadurani: You all know I did the painting of Radha-Syamasundara. Sometimes people give nicknames to others on the basis of something done. Like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura had one sannyasi who had some name, Gaura Narayana, or some name with Gaura, and he renamed him Badri Narayana because he visited Badrinath. It was a temporary name in relation to a particular situation.
So in relation to the painting, he gave me a name because I was serving Radha-Syamasundara or Radha-Syama. Radharani is Syamarani, the beloved of Krsna. So that service got me the nickname. Most of the times he calls me Jadurani and sometimes he calls me Syamarani.
Prabhupada also had a nickname for me, which was Sadhurani. Prabhupada told me, back in the late sixties, at 26th 2nd Avenue, that "So many of my Godbrothers nicknamed each other different names." It's quite common. So it is not unstandard. Also, Prabhupada's name, which he was given by his diksa-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, was Abhay Caranaravinda, and then his Godbrothers gave him another name, Bhaktivedanta, which was further established at the time of his sannyasa initiation.
So it's not uncommon in our line, whether it's a nickname or a real name. It has nothing to do with reinitiation or disloyalty to one's diksa-guru.
Also on two occasions, one in New Jersey, when Prabhupada was convalescing from that heart attack, and on one other occasion, Prabhupada told me, "When you go back to Godhead, you'll be a servant of Radharani." I did not then have the interest to inquire further. But I understand that Prabhupada wants me to go back to Godhead in Vrindavan. And Narayana Maharaja told me that your Prabhupada wants you to go not to Dvaraka, but to Vrindavan. So it's all in connection with Srila Prabhupada.
We're talking in the Prabhupada Centennial about Prabhupada consciousness and being more in tune with Prabhupada. Perhaps not everything that we do now in service or in our zones or in relation to disciples has been written to us in a letter from Srila Prabhupada or in his books. But we may nevertheless feel that Prabhupada is inspiring us to act. When we give Bhagavatam class we often pray. "Please give me the words so I may give this class." So my heartfelt conviction is that Prabhupada instructed me to go to Narayana Maharaja. And if Narayana Maharaja did give me a nickname or try to sway me to Vrindavan, it is coming from none other than Srila Prabhupada. How is it being disloyal? I never met anybody who has given me so much love and faith and appreciation and heartfelt feeling for Srila Prabhupada as Srila Narayana Maharaja.
PP: Two other points. During the Visvarupa Mahotsava ceremony Vinod Vani mataji spoke with some feeling. And I don't know, but the impression was one of....
GS: TKG and I put a statement on GBC Com that we spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava specifically to satisfy Narayana Maharaja and his followers because of the offense committed on Balarama's Appearance Day. Although we tried our best, people are still talking about what happened. They haven't forgotten. So we explained that we weren't defying the GBC body or desiring that people accept Narayana Maharaja as siksa-guru or as the acarya of ISKCON. We were just speaking to try and mitigate the offense on Balarama's Appearance day.
[To Vinod Vani]
BP: How about the canvassing question? There's been complaints that Karta and Jadurani canvas or have canvassed for people to go to Narayana Maharaja.
TKG: I'll give an example. Lokanath Swami has a disciple named Madhavi. So Maharaja is feeling that perhaps she was canvassed and now she's involved with Narayana Maharaja.
K: I can speak because Madhavi is a very good friend of mine. She is a particular kind of person. Lokanath Maharaja probably knows very well. When I first met her, three, four years ago, she was very attracted to go to babajis.
DS: She once told me she wanted to build a house in Radha-kunda, under some babaji. I stopped her.
K: She came to me asking questions about Deity worship because I have Govardhana silas and she wanted to know about Govardhana sila. This is the way she approached me. Then she started saying things which made me realize she was mixed up. She didn't know very much what she was doing and she had this intense attraction for babajis, for going in a different direction. So I preached to her through the years. And now she has no intentions to go to the babajis. She now wants to serve her Guru Maharaja. She is very attached to her Guru Maharaja and very concerned to serve him properly, so he is happy with her.
She's actually never had any direct connection with Srila Narayana Maharaja except when the whole temple went. And none of us took her. She knows what's going on and she has asked and she respects. But she prefers to remain aloof. So she's not been canvassed about it; she's actually been saved from a kind of contamination about babajis.
I joke with her. I say, Don't go away from this sampradaya. Her guru also speaks to her. She's actually doing very well now.
LS: I've only asked about her going out and preaching and distributing books - she doesn't want to go outside Vraja.
K: She's got that idea. But mainly because she's physically exhausted. She's forty. She told me she loves parikrama but she's finding even that difficult to do physically.
TKG: So it could be a physical problem.
K: Yes it is, mainly. She's got some kidney problem right now that she's dealing with and it's affecting her.
DS: Also she's an unprotected widow. Her husband died.
PP: So as far as this complaint or rumor that there's some canvassing, and that every lady that comes to Vrindavan is talked to and if they don't...
TKG: Yes, they are being talked to - by Nandalal, who "preaches" against us.
K: I actually have a long-standing experience because I was in L.A. when the whole Sridhar Maharaja thing was going on. I saw everything that happened and how they dealt with it. It was very unfortunate the way they dealt with it because it could have been dealt with in a better way that could have avoided some problems. So I have been purposely careful not to take anybody there personally. I'm speaking for myself. And whoever goes there goes because Srila Narayana Maharaja is a very famous and attractive person. Especially now, because there's so much controversy, people are attracted to go, even more than before.
[End of morning session]
Now Vinod Vani's name wasn't attached to our statement and we never really spoke to her about it. I guess the basic question is, "Are you defying the GBC body or do you think that Narayana Maharaja should be the acarya of ISKCON, or that ISKCON devotees should come to him?" What was basically in your mind when you spoke at Visvarupa Mahotsava?
PP: [To Giriraj Swami] People are taking your statements to indicate that you and others who are associating with Narayana Maharaja view Narayana Maharaja as being on the same level as Srila Prabhupada, as if there is no difference. They think the logical next conclusion is that he will be the next acarya or he will become the acarya of ISKCON. Thus we should all surrender to him. These perception are drawn from your statements.
GS: The question itself involves so many misconceptions. Any genuine disciple of any ISKCON guru would not speak differently about his own spiritual master. He must see some oneness between his spiritual master and Srila Prabhupada. Otherwise, on what other basis does the disciple accept him as spiritual master?
We've already discussed this point. We accept Narayana Maharaja as a siksa-guru, and if there is no oneness between Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada then what business do we have hearing from him or associating with him? Both are coming in the line of Rupa Gosvami. Without oneness between Srila Prabhupada and Rupa Gosvami and between Narayana Maharaja and Rupa Gosvami, what is the basis of our connection?
If you don't accept that one may accept another as a siksa-guru, that's something else. We should then argue sastra. If we do accept that one can accept a siksa-guru, then we are allowed to see him as one with the diksa-guru. The siksa-guru has got to be in harmony with the diksa-guru. There must be oneness.
Vinod Vani dasi (VV): You have to understand that our relationship with Maharaja is very intimate and more on a heart level. It's not institutional. So there's no way in the world that we consider him like the Founder-acarya of ISKCON or that he should be the next guru. He's not part of our organization nor does he want to be. Our relationship with him is personal.
I had no intention of speaking on Visvarupa Mahotsava. But as soon as I got to the matha he called me and said, "You are speaking today." I thought it was a joke. I said, "No, I'm not." "Yes, you are." So I was on the spot. I had to do it because I accept him as siksa-guru and he was asking me to speak. There was no way out.
So I simply prayed. Maharaja knows me. He knows that when I speak I speak from my heart and it's not prepared or detached. So I simply spoke from my heart. And if anyone had seen it properly he would have seen that I was speaking affectionately, not managerially.
I first spoke about a verse of Kavi Karnapura. I was speaking about the sense in which I see Srila Narayana Maharaja as the same as Prabhupada. Narayana Maharaja's instructions seem to me like a sequel. Srila Prabhupada has given us everything and Srila Narayana Maharaja takes those instructions and explains them and implements them and pushes us on in the same direction.
But I know that it is sensitive. I've been challenged. One of my Godsisters called me a prostitute, living in one temple initiated by one swami and serving and loving another. How am I supposed to answer this? I have siksa-gurus within ISKCON also. I have Tamal Krsna Maharaja and Giriraj Maharaja. Does this mean I am a prostitute, disloyal to Srila Prabhupada because I also take instruction from my Godbrothers? Of course not. If someone has relevant instruction for me that helps me to improve my service to Srila Prabhupada, I take that to be valuable. And if that person comes in the line of Srila Prabhupada and has great love for Srila Prabhupada, then I want that person's association. I never ever think on an organizational level in terms of the next acarya or anything.
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5 November 1994 Part 2: Afternoon Session
BP: Here's a question from one objection to what we are doing: "Although there are recommendations in Srila Prabhupada's books to study books other than his, this can be done within authorized processes, without taking spiritual shelter outside ISKCON."
What is the meaning of "within authorized process." Do you know their intention?
PP: I think that the concern is that there are devotees in our movement who are authorized to study various scriptures for the purpose of translations. Then these devotees would be teaching those things within our different teaching institutions....
TKG: No, no, no. Because somebody can translate doesn't mean that he's necessarily authorized to comment or teach. Translation is not the same as commenting or teaching.
PP: Translation involves studying, so that person...
TKG: As of now, no one's been authorized. Who authorizes that someone studies a book? The GBC? Do you know what this sounds like? This is what went on in the Middle Ages, the Catholic church. Are we going to be that much of a police state? And who's to decide who's qualified to study?
BP: The point here may be that if you should study all ISKCON books within ISKCON you don't have to go outside to study. But what happens if those who are teaching Prabhupada's books have questions that other devotees can't answer? That's what happened to me.
BVPM: In the Deity worship book, we went to probably nine major pandits in different sampradayas all over India to sit with them. Sometimes it took weeks or months to get the information that would answer the point. It's one thing to say, now you should do this. But to understand why you should do this - so it becomes more than just ritual - we had to go deeply into it and that's why we approached people who are actual authorities, who knew why they were doing things - not just doing for the sake of ritual.
PP: Deity worship on the level that you're describing is detailed. It is for a specific segment of devotees. Not all devotees have to learn all of these things in order to...
BVPM: Factually if you look at it, the Pancaratra is our life style: how we dress and put our tilaka, how we serve and eat. This is all Deity worship. We're all supposed to live a brahminical life style.
PP: It's important for you to say whether or not one can get all spiritual knowledge required for perfection in spiritual life simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books.
GS: First I want to ask: Can't you get everything from chanting the maha-mantra? Then why do you read books? Were the four slokas of the Bhagavatam incomplete? Why do you need 18,000? Were the 18,000 incomplete? Then why do you need commentaries? We're discussing a subject that is unlimited. Unlimited numbers of people can say unlimited number of things to enhance our appreciation.
"Preaching activities are external, raga-marga is internal. The internal activities are always higher."
TKG: First of all the paper says that we say that preaching activities are external. External doesn't mean material, inferior or unimportant. The terms external and internal come from the section of Caitanya-caritamrta that explains the reasons for Lord Caitanya's descent. It explains that there is an external reason and an internal reason.
The external reason is to propagate the sankirtana movement. Does it mean it's a material reason? Or unimportant? Or superficial? And the internal reason is to experience radha-bhava and teach the world about the mood of following in Srimati Radharani's footsteps. These are explained in the Caitanya-caritamrta as the external and internal reasons for Lord Caitanya's descent.
So that is the implication of "preaching is external." It doesn't mean it's material. When someone says something is external it doesn't mean the sankirtana movement is a material process. It is fully spiritual. We have to understand this point when we talk about preaching and use the term external.
GS: I wanted to quote one verse which I think whoever compiled the paper has read and perhaps misunderstood. Seva sadhaka rupena sidha rupena catra hi. One should follow and serve the residents of Vrindavan as a sadhaka and as a sidha. In that verse, Srila Prabhupada, in Caitanya-caritamrta, uses the words internal and external.
The actual explanation is that Rupa Gosvami is also a resident of Vrindavan. So as a sadhaka we follow him externally as he used to chant the holy name, offer obeisances, study, write books, do parikrama and so on. But internally as a siddha he is Rupa Manjari. So one follows both moods in raganuga-bhakti, but only when one is qualified.
So this false statement that the internal is higher than the external, implying that as one becomes more advanced he'll pay more and more attention to the internal and neglect the external and thus cause the preaching mission to fail is wrong. In fact the instruction of Rupa Gosvami just quoted defines the difference between real rupanugas and sahajiyas. Real rupanugas follow both internally and externally.
BP: And if one's internal Krsna consciousness is deep, one's preaching will also become more potent.
TKG: And where is the proof that devotees who visit Narayana Maharaja neglect their preaching? Where is the proof? This statement here says, "Since there is an apparent stress on internal raganuga activity over preaching, the practical result of senior devotees associating with Narayana Maharaja is that many other devotees are not being properly encouraged to engage in active preaching work." Can you show me some examples, please?
BP: It is so insulting.
TKG: Where are the examples? I want to see the examples. For example, when I taught "The Nectarean Glories of Vrindavana" at the VIHE - I think Bhakti-Caitanya Maharaja was present - Prthu Prabhu was regularly attending. Why? Because he was eager to hear me glorify preaching, which I did without fail in every single class. I was explaining again and again that our qualification for being in Vrindavan is that we are preaching. None of us, by example or words, discourages the preaching movement. And yet this is one of the things being said about us. Where is the proof?
LS: One question is raised: You say that preaching is going strong in your zone, more books are distributed, temples are being renovated, constructed. But one devotee said you could have done ten times or twenty times as much if you were...
TKG: Let someone who is doing ten or twenty times more than me tell me how.
BP: Well, if they stopped eating they could preach more. Stop all eating and sleeping. Then the time for preaching will increase. How can it possibly decrease the preaching if devotees increase their Krsna consciousness? It sounds so absurd. Then we should make sure all devotees remain neophytes.
DS: Where is the example of someone else? That's the thing. Prabhupada says, you do what they are doing and then you speak. Otherwise it is easy to say anything.
TKG: I am out in the preaching field eight to nine months of the year, and when I come here I am constantly writing or preaching. What is it they think I should do more?
BP: Sometimes Giriraj Maharaja is not spending time in Bombay. He is spending all his time in Vrindavan.
GS: I also have service in Vrindavana. But I wanted to speak on TKG's behalf.
TKG. What am I doing that's preventing me from doing ten times more? What am I doing that's stopping me from doing more preaching?
LS: Spending more time.
GS: You mean the one and a half months he is ....
BP: Sometimes three or four months. But Prabhupada also came back so many times to Vrindavan and Mayapura. Because this is the inspiration of the devotees. These dhamas give strength so that one may go out and preach.
TKG. This is the blessing I got from serving Prabhupada in his last year and not asking anything from him. He showed me how to live in Vrindavan.
GS: The same could be said about everyone. Everyone could be doing ten times more.
TKG: If he wasn't sick he could do so much more than he is doing. He shouldn't get sick. He is doing so much already, but if he didn't get sick, can you imagine what he could do? Is that a fair criticism? That's ridiculous.
BP: What I say is that before our eyes we have TKG, a fifty-year-old man. To carry on in his preaching and to get strength and inspiration in his preaching, which by the way, is in difficult fields-China, Hong Kong, and Texas-he wants to spend some time in Vrindavan. He doesn't neglect his duties. So who should regulate him? He is fifty-years-old. He is not twenty-years-old. Not seventeen-years-old. Who should tell him? If Vrindavana is his inspiration, his life for preaching, who should tell him he should change his inspiration so that he can increase his preaching?
BVPM: As he mentioned before, he is also training disciples when he is here. There is also that aspect. It's not just the preacher in the field distributing books who is the only preacher. As your disciples advance and ask questions, you have to give time to them. And you have to study yourself so you can answer their questions.
BP: If you don't study, when disciples ask questions you won't know the answers. They'll think that Guru Maharaja doesn't know anything. Who will they ask? Then we'll complain that devotees are going outside ISKCON for answers. We want ISKCON devotees to know everything, but we don't want to give them time to study. Then everyone just becomes active foolish.
One spiritual master and old devotee and friend told me that when disciples ask questions on Prabhupada's books that he doesn't know the answer to, he tells them to meditate upon it and when you are ready Prabhupada will answer you from within your heart. Where does the sastra say that is our process? We are supposed to study and hear from devotees. That's parampara. And anyway, why doesn't the spiritual master first meditate and receive the answer and then just tell the disciple?
GS: When I was speaking with HH Sridhar Swami about why I associate with Narayana Maharaja, he immediately understood - within a management paradigm - that I was talking about increasing performance capability as opposed to performance. He said that a big problem in ISKCON is that everyone is so worried about performance that they don't pay enough attention to increasing performance capability.
BP: A quadrant four activity.
PP: Quandrant three. (Laughter)
BP: People often come here, dying and dry, to get recharged. Because we attempt to study, and because we teach, devotees become so enlivened with VIHE. Because the teachers have studied the devotee feel like they are getting nectar and then they go out and preach.
PP: Can we move on?
"Srila Prabhupada's work was incomplete. He established the foundation but there is still a grand "temple" extending into the highest realms of raga-bhakti which must be established by his disciples. HH Narayana Maharaja can assist us in this endeavor."
TKG: This next supposed viewpoint of ours says that we say Srila Prabhupada's work was incomplete. Nonsense. He said, I gave the framework.
GS. The framework means from top to bottom.
TKG: Who said this?
PP: It comes from the transcript of the Visvarupa Mahotsava, Narayana Maharaja's statements.
GS: Anyway, if devotees really do want to understand Narayana Maharaja, they should speak to us, because we know him better, we have associated with him more. If they really want to understand what he thinks about Prabhupada, I think they can probably understand better from us than by reading one lecture transcript in isolation.
?: Why don't you explain what it means....
GS: Anyway, without reference to the transcript, I would say that he agrees that Srila Prabhupada has given us everything and that everything is in Prabhupada's books. But more can be said. And by discussing the other works of the Gosvamis, and even discussing the same books that Prabhupada translated, more comes out of them. It's the sastric process. Srimad-bhagavatarthanam asvado rasakaih saha: one should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of devotees. That is why Srila Prabhupada gave us the morning class and the evening class, because he said we get more out of discussion than by reading alone.
PP: I don't have the transcript with me, the exact quotes, but here's something. It says that "Swamiji has at first prepared the ground by preaching hari-nama and Bhagavad-gita. So very important work. Without this he couldn't have given these things. So he has done this task, and it was so necessary for all the world. But he has not done everything. It was only foundation. After that he began to erect the temple by writing his books. But we are deprived of that. He could not complete his work."
GS: Prabhupada himself said that if he'd lived longer he would have translated so many more books.
TKG: He didn't finish the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
PP: Yes. What people are reading into this is....
GS: I don't even know if it's true, but I heard many times, in ISKCON circles, that Srila Prabhupada said he'd only completed fifty percent of his work. If Prabhupada said he only completed fifty percent of his work, nobody minds. But if Narayana Maharaja says something, because of prejudice, they take it differently.
BP: But no one thinks that Prabhupada just established the foundation meaning just the basics.
GS: When he says the ground, what he means is that pure bhakti is anyabilasita sunyam jnana karmady anavrtam. So to cut the jungle, as he says, of mayavada and karmavada and other things, is to clear the ground for pure bhakti.
GS: When Prabhupada was in Teheran, Atreya Rsi made some very sentimental statement that one day the Muslims would be chanting Hare Krsna. And Prabhupada said, "Why should they chant Hare Krsna? They can chant 'Allah, Allah.' We are not sectarian."
And in Sri Lanka Prabhupada said we could keep a Deity of Buddha in the temple. It is completely wrong that unity can take place only when they give up everything and surrender to ISKCON and the GBC.
TKG: Prove. Give any shred of evidence that Prabhupada said it. Again ... "There is nothing in the act of formation of the BSCT which suggests that Srila Prabhupada was overruling his previously stated desire that the Gaudiya Vaisnavas should be united under ISKCON's banner." Where is that statement?
GS: Where is that previously stated? Where?
TKG: Listen to this quote from Bhakti Charu Maharaja. Listen to this, "However, when our duty is to police the Society we cannot be worried about offending others. For the sake of a greater cause we have to be prepared to take some risk. I am sure that when we are taking the risk for the sake of Srila Prabhupada he will protect us. Did not Arjuna fight against Bhismadeva, a mahajana, for the sake of Krsna? What we are trying to do is to just protect ISKCON."
My only comment is...Won't Prabhupada protect us also? We are also trying to protect ISKCON - against the offenses he is suggesting ISKCON members take part in.
What is this, Panch?
PP: I am just trying to voice what I perceive as being the inner heart. You have spoken your heart on these issues, and I have heard the hearts of others. My own heart is drawn towards your perspective, and at the same time afraid, because I am neophyte. I am really a neophyte.
BP: The last part of neophyte is fight. That's what always happens. (Laughter)
PP: I am afraid of making a mistake. I see my senior Godbrothers on one side and other senior Godbrothers on another side. It's very, very difficult.
TKG: Can I say something? Please see how limited what we are proposing is. We are proposing only that devotees' personal association should not be restricted. That's all.
GS: I haven't really understood what the problems would be. Say there were ten instead of forty, what big difference would it make, especially if in the forty, he is increasing faith in Prabhupada, enthusiasm for service, knowledge of Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta.
BP: Up to this point, he's been sending everyone to ISKCON. But if ISKCON cuts all relationships with him, as it seems ready to do, he may start his own preaching. Then it won't just be five a year. It won't just be twenty. It could be hundreds and hundreds of...
TKG: ...competitors.
BP: Up to now he was basically just sending everyone to ISKCON.
GS: I don't think the GBC has to do anything except lift the restriction. They don't have to certify him. They don't have to condemn him. They don't have to make any decision. They should just leave it up to the individual to decide. Narayana Maharaja is not easy to understand. He has no time, he is not interested. He feels visitors are a botheration in a sense. So not many will go. It's like during the zonal acarya days. The use of force created so many problems and disturbances. Just take off the artificial restrictions. You don't have to make any statements or judgement.
PP: My personal feeling is that it would be better if the GBC were to firmly establish and propagate a philosophy of guru tattva that is more in line with our siddhanta.
GS: Yes!
TKG: The real issue is siksa-guru. And the block is diksa-guru. Just like the real issue in the mid-80s was the zonal acaryas and the solution was to expand the number of gurus. Now the problem is coming from diksa-guru and...
PP: And then finally maybe we can be clear of blockage. We have been constipated for the last 15 years.
BP: Men and money.
PP: Right. It's men, it's money, it's control, it's authority. It's a lot of things. It's a lot of heavy institutional hierarchies.
TKG. I got such good training from Narayana Maharaja because I saw a selfless siksa-guru and how he deals with my diksa disciples whenever he had occasion to meet them at any public function. He just increases their faith so much in me that I realize that there is no threat. Actually there is no threat. It's the greatest blessing. I've personally experienced it.
[End]
TKG: You know who gives siddha-pranali initiation? The babajis at Radha-kunda. They give siddha-pranali initiation.
PP: We heard of something called manjari-diksa.
TKG: They do all these things. And he is the enemy of the babajis. More than anyone in ISKCON he is capable of defeating the babajis.
GS: Not only that. He is aware of all the subtleties involved in their position and the dangers of it. And the whole history of the antagonism between the babajis and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
?: Did he give some special rasika initiation to Arca Vigraha before she died?
TKG: You have to understand how the rumors spread. Our critics told Suhotra Swami when he visited Vrindavan. They whispered in his ear that Arca Vigraha was given siddha-pranali initiation. Instead of asking Giriraj Maharaja, who was present here in Vrindavan, about it, he went to Europe and told Harikesa Maharaja and Bhakti Charu Maharaja. He also told them who he heard it from. I met Harikesa Maharaja in Zurich - by chance. I told him it's just nonsense. And I got a letter from Bhakti Charu Maharaja enquiring. I was outraged because this woman was one of the most advanced persons I ever met. He didn't give her siddha-pranali initiation. I was infuriated that Suhotra Swami would have gone to this extent. I said to Bhakti Charu Maharaja, "Why are you criticizing Narayana Maharaja and us? Why are you besmearing the name of mother Arca Vigraha while she's on her deathbed?"
LS: I am amazed. Where does this come from?
GS: It's a rumor. It's fear, attachment, envy.
BP: That's what it is. People criticized Narayana Maharaja for visiting Arca Vigraha on her death bed. "What right has this Narayana Maharaja to come to visit Arca Vigraha?" This is what people told me.
She is dying. She has some faith in this man. And people, with no heart, no brain, dare to criticize. One's whole faith is tested at the time of death. And they are criticizing this man for coming to visit her at the time of her death.
PP: Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna.
BP: At the time of her death they criticize. Such a low mentality.
TKG: Don't be like Bhisma. I am praying to you all. Please, at some point get outraged and do something. If you want, come with me. We should sit. You should examine. I am ready to open anything up to you if you really want to understand, but at some point you have to really speak up: "That's wrong. This is wrong." It's low politics.
GS: We very much appreciate the first step you all have taken; we just want it to go further.
TKG: We want it to go further. That's the point.
PP: Well, we at least have to make our report. That much we have to do. When this is ready, this is going to be a long detailed thing.... We are just about out of time.
TKG: One very important point is hari-nama initiation. There is criticism of his style of hari-nama initiation.
TKG: He gives the Gaudiya Matha hari-nama initiation, not the ISKCON hari-nama initiation. That's got nothing to do with us. But with Western devotees, he makes them chant 16 rounds and follow the four principles. He has accepted Prabhupada's standard. He has no doubt that Prabhupada knows what's best. He just doesn't do a big yajna.
GS: Narayana Maharaja has mentioned that he appreciates Prabhupada's system in ISKCON more than the system in his institution. He is not the acarya of his institution and he is loyal, so he may not be able to make changes, but he does appreciate Prabhupada's genius and inspiration in relation to preaching and organizing a spiritual movement.
?: It goes further than that. He accepts Srila Prabhupada as his siksa-guru. He said it openly many times.
LS: He said it at that Mayapura parikrama.
TKG: Out loud. In his room he keeps a photo of Prabhupada that's as big as Kesava Maharaja's, side by side with it. And he's got their acarya's photo about this big.
PP: Even my wife was talking with one devotee who just came from his parikrama and her observation was that Narayana Maharaja was actually bothered by the Western devotees.
GS: He is asking for relief. He is really asking for relief.
?: Not canvassing.
TKG: The few Westerners he really wants to deal with, actually, are the twelve senior people, because he is sure they can take full advantage of his association. In the long run it will be the best service for ISKCON.
"There is a difference between cooperation and unification."
TKG: Who is pushing to unify ISKCON with the Gaudiya Matha? Do they present this as our position?
"Srila Prabhupada distinctly wanted this unification to take place under the banner of ISKCON and under the management of the GBC body."
TKG: I am just curious to find out where this came from.
BVPM: I know in Mayapura Prabhupada had offered the Gosvami Matha, "I will give bus and books. All they have to do is get their brahmacaris and take it out and distribute." It didn't have anything to do with being under the GBC.
GS: This is very important. This is used again and again to prove that Narayana Maharaja hasn't really accepted Prabhupada, that he hasn't either left his Guru Maharaja's institution and surrendered to the GBC body or merged his institution with ISKCON under the GBC body. It's absurd to think that Prabhupada would have even suggested it.
TKG: Where did this come from that there is need of unification, that they are supposed to give up their institutions, merge with ISKCON, and work under the GBC? Besides Jayapataka Maharaja's desire for it, can anyone show me anything in writing or in speech where Prabhupada says this? I know Jayapataka Maharaja envisions this as the only possible way. But where does it come from?
LS: It will never happen.
TKG: It will never happen, but where did Prabhupada say it should happen?
BP: In Australia Prabhupada told the Christians all they have to do is give up eating meat and that we should cooperate for preaching.
PP: There is some other talk about resignation.
BP: On Com?
PP: Well, there was Suhotra's message, and then some other talk.
BP: The funny thing is that no one ever talks to the people involved. It's like a bunch of ladies gossiping.
"Narayana Maharaja is such an exalted ragatmika devotee, and his mood is the same as Srila Prabhupada's, his association is practically as valuable as Srila Prabhupada's association since the taste and benefits are the same."
TKG: What's this objection about? "HH Narayana Maharaja is such an exalted ragatmika devotee..." Who says this?
?: This is supposed to be your position.
GS: They are attributing it to us?
TKG: Yes, it's our position. "His association is practically as valuable as Srila Prabhupada's association since the taste and benefits are the same." This is what they say that we say.
LS: This comes from Visvarupa Mahotsava. Jadurani was explaining something after lunch.
PP: She was saying that the inspiration she received for her paintings has come from Srila Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja to her.
TKG: That's very reasonable.
PP: So it's not me giving paintings to Narayana Maharaja, it's him giving paintings to me. Or Srila Prabhupada is giving me paintings through Narayana Maharaja.
GS: In other words, Narayana Maharaja got an inspiration for a painting and asked her to put it on canvas. As Prabhupada's disciple she sees Srila Prabhupada working through Narayana Maharaja. But because the vision of the painting is coming from Narayana Maharaja to her, she considers herself just the instrument to put it on canvas. So it's coming from Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja to her.
TKG. Everyone who has a siksa-guru would think like this. That's the point.
GS: One problem in the movement in general is lack of understanding of guru-tattva. I was just going over in my mind the issues that have shaken the movement over the years. They were the zonal-acarya system and the posthumous-ritvik theory and the present "problem." And all three disturbances have come from lack of proper understanding of guru-tattva. We don't understand siksa-guru. Because we don't have a clear understanding that the original guru is Krsna and that every other guru is just repeating Krsna's message and serving Him, we get into the personality cult, the Prabhupada sampradaya, and the idea that if you accept a siksa-guru you are minimizing Prabhupada. If you see your siksa-guru as one with Prabhupada you are minimizing Prabhupada. All this is due to improper understanding of guru-tattva.
BP: Through the zonal acarya crisis, the movement established the position of the Founder-acarya. Through the ritvik theory crisis, we established the diksa-guru. And now, through the present crisis, we have to establish the proper understanding of siksa-guru.
"Many, many senior devotees see evidence that Narayana Maharaja's mood is not the same as Srila Prabhupada's. One may have opinions about the taste of the fruit being the same or the mood being the same, but such opinions must be confirmed by guru, sadhu and sastra. To draw such conclusions means that one considers that one actually fully understood the taste and mood of Srila Prabhupada's association. Srila Prabhupada established the GBC body specifically to detect and root out such speculative conclusions based on material sentiment. There is nothing in Srila Prabhupada's direct instructions to support this position."
TKG: "Many senior devotees see evidence that Narayana Maharaja's mood is not the same as Srila Prabhupada's." I am waiting to see what that evidence is.
PP: Again it's all based on hearsay, misreadings. Narayana Maharaja's talks are difficult to follow and he speaks from a different perspective. As I perceive it, his grammar is also different from what we are accustomed to.
TKG. Therefore you should take help from people who are close to him and who understand him.
PP: So different conceptions have come that Narayana Maharaja has a different perspective on preaching than Srila Prabhupada.
TKG: To some extent what you say is true, but our critics also have a motive. From the beginning they have had a very negative attitude which makes it difficult for them to approach us for an accurate understanding. They want to see faults in him. But I am not going to misrepresent him. After you understand him properly, if you still don't agree, then you can get upset.
PP: I know. Personally I found that when I read Narayana Maharaja's statements with the attitude that he is speaking the same as Srila Prabhupada, I understand his words in that way. If I read with the attitude that he is speaking something different, I understand in that way. Whatever attitude I read it with I get a different meaning.
TKG: Isn't it true with Bhagavad-gita?
BP: Another point is that many senior devotees say that Narayana Maharaja's mood is different from Srila Prabhupada's. Well, Bhakti-vidya-purna Maharaja doesn't have exactly the same mood as Srila Prabhupada, nor does Giriraj Maharaja, nor Lokanath Maharaja.
GS: Nor did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
PP: Within our society, there are all different moods.
PP: Now, can you say something about this siddha-pranali initiation?
BP: Step into the back room, Panca.
(Laughter)
BP: What are people saying?
PP: It's a rumor. That he gives siddha-pranali initiation.
BP: To whom?
PP: To ISKCON devotees.
BP: To Giriraj Manjari? To Tamal Manjari? What is it? What is it?
LS: From these nicknames given.
BP: What? Two people of all the people that he sees? So nicknames were given. Where's the siddha- pranali?
"One's internal development of Krsna consciousness is primary and one's institutional relationship is external. If we have to choose between our spiritual relationships and ISKCON GBC resolutions we must choose the former."
This one is also wrong. Instead of external it should say secondary. One's internal development of Krsna consciousness is primary. But I don't agree. How can one separate one's Krsna consciousness from one's service?
GS: They argue against our supposed position by saying that because Isvara Puri served as the menial servant of Madhavendra Puri he got Madhavendra Puri's mercy.
TKG: The argument against us - that we care for internal development but not external service - is wrong. Our lives don't show that. We are serving the institution continuously....Now 3.3, love and trust.
"There should be love and trust in those devotees who have served in leadership roles in ISKCON for so many years that they should be allowed to make decisions about how they cultivate spiritual life without trying to make superficial institutional restrictions."
We are questioning, not disobeying. Do we have the right to question? Does questioning mean disobedience?
GS: To the contrary, if we were selfish we could very easily keep quiet. But precisely because we are concerned about the well-being of the movement, which begins with the GBC body, we are raising issues we think have to be dealt with properly by the GBC body, not just for our own selves but for the general welfare of the devotees in our movement, now and in the future.
TKG: Now it says that others who are doing well should have the right to question us. Fine. Let them question us directly, but not on Com.
GS: Yes.
TKG: It's Com bat. They want to score points. Next, 3.4.1, under "our position," they place the words in our mouths: "That these resolutions have not been followed by the GBC body for so many years so they in effect have no validity and need not be followed."
That isn't our position. Anything that's in the books has to be followed or, if it's not proper, it should be repealed.
BP: Last year I submitted a proposal to repeal these 1982 resolutions. Due to the nature of last year's meetings, the proposal was not dealt with.
GS: Two years ago Ravindra Svarupa said he was going to drop the resolution of 1982 in the revisions committee. He never did it. It's been the policy of the GBC not to go over old resolutions one by one, but rather to have the revisions committee deal with them.
But Ravindra Svarupa himself told the GBC body he thought the resolutions were defunct. Not only were the resolutions neither followed nor enforced, but the GBC itself went to Narayana Maharaja during the ritvik theory agitation and printed a discussion with him in the ISKCON Journal, the main instrument that defused the ritvik crisis. The conduct of the GBC itself indicates that the old resolution was defunct. It just was never officially removed.
TKG: Gaura Govinda Maharaja also took siksa from outside. For years, from around '82, he took siksa from a Gaudiya Matha babaji.
"As a consequence of the lack of importance placed in institutional considerations and the view that managerial matters and institutional rules are 'external,' and thus inferior to 'internal' affairs, there is no strict following of the GBC body's rules nor of commitments made to the GBC body such as the agreement which was signed at the 1994 meeting."
TKG: Let them prove that we've minimized the importance of the institution. Prove it. It's false.
TKG: And we never said that managerial matters and institutional rules are "external" and thus inferior to internal affairs. We've already demonstrated that this is false. "There is no strict following of the GBC body's rules, nor of commitments made to the GBC body such as the agreement signed at the 1994 meeting." I've proved that we have followed.
LS: Many don't know that.
TKG: If they don't know, why should they assume - especially without asking us? Anyway, now they'll know.
GS: A copy of the undertaking was left with Jagadish Maharaja. If the people who are so quick to accuse us of not following had themselves followed the undertaking and brought their concerns to Jagadish Maharaja they would know. Instead they broadcast their misinformation all over the world. They are the ones who didn't follow the procedure that was agreed upon in Mayapura.
TKG: Do you understand? All concerned parties were informed that there is a liaison officer, and if you have grievances you should go to him. I pointed that out in my letter to Suhotra Maharaja. He admits that he should have done it, but he said he thought it was good enough to talk to two GBC men. But that's not what we agreed. He has just perpetuated the problem.
LS: They say that the liaison officer wasn't accessible.
GS: After Visvarupa Mahotsava I was very concerned to inform Jagadish Maharaja according to proper procedure. He was at the Saranagati farm, the most accessible place of all. And I got through within two days. I phoned the Vancouver temple, got the phone number of some devotees who lived near Saranagati, and made a phone appointment to speak to Jagadisha Maharaja.
LS: The other thing they say is that he was chosen because we knew he wouldn't do anything.
TKG: Come on, Maharaja. He was also chosen as the chairman of the GBC.
GS: He was also a local Vrindavana GBC, famous for being grave, fair-minded and....
TKG. So it's not true - a typical baseless accusation.
"Naturally the junior devotees will follow the example of the seniors."
I want to know if that has happened. Since it's so natural, why hasn't it happened?
?: Haven't we covered this?
TKG: I know. I am covering it again. You know why it hasn't happened? Because it's not natural.
GS: What is natural is that different devotees will progress in different ways. And devotees should understand what Prabhupada said so many times: One should act accordingly to one's position and not imitate. Devotees who became gurus and tried to imitate had trouble. But if as gurus they act according to their actual position, they can be gurus. So it is just natural that different devotees will have different services and inclinations. And devotees have to understand the principle of doing their duty and acting appropriately for their own position and not imitating.
TKG: If those leaders who keep talking of HH Narayana Maharaja were actually convinced there was a problem, they should kindly approach and convince me. Do not threaten me. "Those who wish to follow HH Narayana Maharaja should resign."
PP: No, I know. I had to explain to her that she misread it. And I could see how she misread it. You asked how these things come. They come out of misreading Narayana Maharaja's statements and misreading of other statements.
GS: It comes from something deeper. It comes from hostility. Because if anyone really wanted to know what Narayana Maharaja meant they could easily have asked us. Or him.
BP: Like Sankarsana was mature, and after Nandalal approached him with her preaching he asked me. I cleared the same Mahavishnu point immediately.
PP: Yes, enmity is at the root.
GS: They don't want to know. They wish to find faults to discredit Narayana Maharaja, to discredit us, and keep ISKCON as narrow and crippled as...
"The authority of the GBC can be discounted in certain internal matters, and one's heart and faith cannot be legislated. If one of Srila Prabhupada's dear friends captures our heart and helps us serve Srila Prabhupada we cannot give him up on the demands of the GBC body, which has made so many mistakes in the past."
TKG: The last line says that we cannot give up Narayana Maharaja on the demands of the GBC body. My comment is that I don't want to give him up simply on sectarian demands. I will give him up by reason, scripture, convincing arguments.
They claim that our position is that we want to be loyal to Prabhupada but not to the GBC. Which one of us has ever said that we will not be loyal to the GBC but only to Prabhupada? If there is anybody in the movement who has fought against this it's me. I believe it more than anyone. I have proved it again and again.
Then if you say, "You say you follow the GBC, but you haven't accepted the GBC's will," I will show that I did accept the GBC's will. I am following the undertakings except for one, once, and I explained why. I have followed the GBC. When the GBC told me to leave my zone, to leave all my disciples, I did it. Nobody ever did this the way I did. I did it. Last year, to stop them from breaking the movement to pieces, we agreed to these undertakings, although we couldn't stand them. My whole life I've done this.
PP: It just came from...
BP: It's just politics.
TKG. The man who said it, I trained this man up. I trained him up about what the GBC is. Now he is telling me and saying I should be kicked off the GBC body because I don't know what it means to be a GBC man, to be loyal to the GBC. I blindly follow the GBC. I used to blindly follow; now I want to follow with my eyes open. But I'll never stop following.
I cannot stand what people insinuate and then put all over Com - all over the world - so that people look at me as if I gave up my loyalty to the GBC. I am an original GBC member. I have never given up my loyalty to the GBC. Never. I gave up all my disciples, I gave up my zone, and I went with nothing to China just to maintain faith in the GBC.
You all can't remain neutral. Sooner or later you have to speak up. Fifty men spoke up and they righted the wrongs in our movement. You have to see that a great wrong is being done here and, whether it's popular or not, finally you have to speak up and say, "Enough of this. This is nonsense." Otherwise it looks like a vendetta: one group of GBC over another. It's got to be neutral people who are not GBC men to finally carry the way out. If there is a large group of non GBC men who become fully convinced, especially senior devotees, everything will come clear.
?: Convinced about what?
TKG: Convinced that this is a completely false case.
PP: This case has been brewing since the beginning.
TKG: Who brewed it? Four people brewed this here in Vrindavan. It wasn't brewed by every Tom, Dick and Harry in town. Four people. And one GBC member took it up. That's history. Not everybody is into it. I don't disagree. Many people are into it. But this is how it became a conflagration.
BP: At least this point should be clear. If the arguments now being attributed to us are the actual arguments against us, these arguments are weird and obviously false and dishonest. That at least should be clear. These are dishonest arguments "One may argue we are still loyal to Prabhupada but not loyal to the GBC." Who is arguing like that? Where did he get that idea? When did any one of us indicate that was our argument?
PP: See, when we got into organizing this discussion, we made a conscious decision not to go through the exercise of enumerating different statements by different people at different times, different incidents, different facts or alleged facts, etc. We wanted to focus our attention on the principles of the argument.
TKG. I am saying that after all is said and done, as an intelligent man, you should look into this and become convinced one way or another.
PP: Yeah. I have been talking. I do talk to a lot of people and they say this and I say well, you know, but. So things like that go on. And I learned a lot today. I have to thank you very much.
TKG: You are helping. I just hope you are understanding our simple point, that our visiting Narayana Maharaja is not a threat to our movement. But I do think there is a serious threat to our movement that we now need to take stock of. There are some serious blockages which have created this problem. There are very serious misrepresentations of our philosophy. This Prabhupada sampradaya concoction is a very, very dangerous schism. It's apasiddhanta and it is being pushed by some GBC people. It's very, very bad. It is cutting us off from the whole Caitanya tree.
PP: We were handicapped because we did not have the text of your undertaking to the GBC. All of this having to do with following GBC authority was based on hearsay.
TKG: You know why we never let anybody have a copy of the undertaking? We feared that Narayana Maharaja would learn of it directly. We never told Narayana Maharaja these things, because if we had told him in March, after the GBC meetings, he would have been feeling the way he feels now. We were trying to avoid hurting him. So we tried to keep this very, very carefully.
PP: All of these objections are nullified, in my mind, because, as you have said, you have followed the GBC resolutions.
TKG: I have gone to see him half a dozen times. Yet people have the impression I go all the time. That's not true.
LS: On parikrama you joined, or some joined.
TKG: I went once. That was one of the half dozen times this year. Although I wanted to go - I would like to have gone everyday - I didn't. I restrained myself.
PP: We have only a little time and I would like time to conclude.
TKG. Let's go through it. 3.2.
TKG. I say there about a dozen senior people, maybe half a dozen men and half a dozen women. Senior people like ourselves. Now you should correct me if you know differently. But I think there must be another dozen people who are junior. Junior means they've only been devotees somewhere between seven and fifteen instead of twenty-five years. I say there is another dozen of them. And many of these people live in Vrindavan all the time. And I think that all these people I mentioned are continuing active service in ISKCON. Apart from that I think there must be another two dozen people around the world who are not in ISKCON and who have some relationship with Narayana Maharaja through initiation. To my knowledge, at this time, that's the total extent of his massive following after six to seven years.
But I can definitely say it's going to increase now, thanks to the way this issue has been handled. But while we were maintaining friendly relations with him, he was insisting that devotees continue to take shelter and initiation within ISKCON. Even now he continues to say that. But he was really saying it. He was considering that he was under the GBC. He would even ask us whenever there was some tension with ISKCON as to how he should deal with it.
But even now it's maybe somewhere between forty to fifty people maximum. Now after so many years, is that so dangerous? In your own opinion is it a large number?
PP: The fear is not of the present number. But as we have been talking before, the ramifications of ISKCON actually establishing a broader vision of ISKCON and spiritual authorities and so on are great. Up until now ISKCON has been operating under a very close system.
TKG: Of all my disciples, none of them goes to see him except one who lives here. If anybody had any interest to go it would be my followers because of my example. Why is it that they don't go? Lokanath Swami interviewed them. If they were following my example, why is it that they have no interest to go? And if my disciples are not going, whose disciples are going? They have to get their guru's permission. So where is the danger? And what is it that Narayana Maharaja tells people who go to him? Even the people estranged from this movement that he initiates, he tells to serve in ISKCON because they can't get shelter within his institution. He doesn't really initiate in his own organization. He is getting ready to wind up everything. He just wants to do writing and bhajana. Where is the danger from this person? We have been told he is a huge threat to the movement.
BP: Not just a huge threat - the biggest threat.
TKG. Biggest threat that ever hit this movement is this person. Can you see that it is all false?
You can't remain neutral. Sooner or later you have to answer as to your opinion. Everybody will have to answer: It's either correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Why are you still fearful? Or why is everyone else fearful? Convince me. You can't simply hold a stick up to my head and say, 1982 resolution.
What actually is the danger? Lokanath Maharaja told me that because of Narayana Maharaja his disciple ran away from preaching. Now it turns out that she was a sahajiya running all over the place after every little babaji, and the two people here who happen to be connected to Narayana Maharaja saved her.
Give credit to those two people and Narayana Maharaja; you should give credit where it's due. This girl was running after every babaji in this city, as we finally heard. We didn't hear the same story you told the other day. Now I've heard the actual facts. And this is going on again and again and again. Issues are being exaggerated, bluffed, and misunderstood. What I want is a neutral group of people to judge this thing. Really neutral people.
This is wrong, Lokanath Maharaja. You said that Madhavi was lured to Narayana Maharaja by these two matajis, but actually she was saved by them.
BP: And Karta said that she never even brought her one time to see Narayana Maharaja!
TKG: Karta never brought her to see Narayana Maharaja. You were swayed by all that you heard. Madhavi is forty years old. Her husband died. She is not able to go back to Japan to distribute and collect after so many years. She's old.
LS: We could say that this is a special case.
TKG: The case against us has been built, you know, by hundreds of such little misrepresentations.
TKG: You know my disciple Gauridas, the Gurukula ashram teacher? He went through two gurus. Jayatirtha and Bhagavan. He went through the biggest crisis you can imagine for six to seven years trying to find his guru. But he was so disillusioned by these two falldowns that he just couldn't put full faith in anyone. He finally went to Narayana Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja preached to him about how the ISKCON gurus are qualified and that even if a guru is not uttama from an objective point of view, he will still be able to give you everything up to prema one day because he will be uttama. And he completely instilled faith in this man's heart for our ISKCON gurus. And then, because of Narayana Maharaja, Gauridas conceived of taking shelter of an ISKCON guru.
Yet all we hear on Com is the complaint that Narayana Maharaja is influential in the Gurukula! Narayana Maharaja himself has no interest to initiate. I am just saying, this is the kind of service that this person does.
BP: Jadurani did not talk about how she met Narayana Maharaja. When she arrived here a few years ago she was still into the ritvik theory. Candrika, Rupa Vilasa's ex-wife, both of them were into the ritvik theory, and Narayana Maharaja completely cleared that and he gave them faith in ISKCON and ISKCON's authorities.
GS: Jadurani wasn't painting. She was doing comics. By Narayana Maharaja's association she came back to Prabhupada's original instruction to her and now she is doing the most extraordinary paintings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Radha-Krsna.
TKG: When Ramprasada saw Jadurani's painting for the first time, he said, "I can't paint anymore. How does she continue? She is the only artist from Prabhupada's time that's still painting." And yet, what is ISKCON's appreciative response? "Why is she painting and giving Narayana Maharaja the paintings?" That's the only reply. Simply meanness of heart. Just see the meanness of heart.
LS: Pettiness...
TKG: Never mind that she is inspired and is not a ritvik follower anymore.
BP: Can I say another thing about 2. We never say that he has a special revelation of Srila Prabhupada. I am just wondering where in the world the idea has come from?
PP: I can tell you. The Visvarupa Mahotsava transcript can be read in a great variety of ways. I mean, unfortunately Narayana Maharaja's speaking is very difficult to follow, which I noticed, for example, with this whole thing with Mahavisnu. Nandalal told me that Narayana Maharaja said that Prabhupada was on the level of Mahavisnu preaching.
TKG. Who did Prabhupada say should comment on the Bhagavad-gita? Bhakto si me sakha ceti. Unless someone is a devotee and a friend he cannot understand the mind of the speaker. Therefore if you want to know what Narayana Maharaja said, just ask a devotee and a friend. They'll tell you exactly what he meant. We don't have to ask a person who is totally hostile. Just like if you want to know what Krsna said you don't ask the scholars. You don't ask a Mayavadi. You don't ask the people who dislike Krsna. Why ask this woman who has made herself so totally inimical to us and Narayana Maharaja, "Could you explain, mataji?" and expect her to explain clearly what he said.
"Because we were too neophyte Srila Prabhupada only revealed a limited perception of himself. Because of his long and intimate association with Srila Prabhupada, HH Narayana Maharaja can help us to perceive Srila Prabhupada's eternal, nitya position."
"HH Narayana Maharaja has repeatedly stressed that Srila Prabhupada is an eternal associate of Krishna in manjari bhava. However Srila Prabhupada did not reveal to us his siddha deha. HH Narayana Maharaja can help us to more fully appreciate Srila Prabhupada."
BP: Years and years ago it was going around that Prabhupada was only in sakhya rasa. The implication was that Prabhupada was therefore inferior. The point was that other devotees, his Godbrothers, were in madhura-rasa, so they were superior.
So in the midst of this propaganda, Narayana Maharaja, every disappearance day festival of Prabhupada's, would preach that Prabhupada was in madhurya-rasa to counteract this nonsense propaganda that you have to go outside of ISKCON to reach the higher realms of Krsna consciousness. That's where it began that Narayana Maharaja says that Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa.
TKG: I don't understand the next point. "Our understanding is that the spiritual master may reveal his eternal sidha deha to an intimate advanced disciple or follower, who then may reveal it to others. HH Narayana Maharaja does not accept Srila Prabhupada as acarya and his intimacy and friendship is on the level of Srila Prabhupada's external activities. How can we accept that he has a special revelation of Srila Prabhupada."
They say their understanding is that the spiritual master may reveal his eternal siddha-deha to an intimate advanced disciple or follower, who then may reveal it to others. They continue by saying that HH Narayana Maharaja does not accept Srila Prabhupada as acarya and his intimacy and friendship are on the level of Srila Prabhupada's external activities. Can you explain what they mean?
PP: This is someone's perception that Narayana Maharaja's association with Srila Prabhupada was in relation to the preaching and different activities that he had during his early days, so we cannot assume...
GS: Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada were friends and Narayana Maharaja used to serve Srila Prabhupada in many ways. He used to cook chapatis for him. They enjoyed an intimate friendship and they discussed confidential things which perhaps Srila Prabhupada didn't discuss with us. This is natural because different people have different relationships. To think that to have intimate relationship with Srila Prabhupada one has to accept him as the acarya and surrender to him in the mood of disciple and become subordinate to the GBC is ridiculous.
As far as I can understand they had a mood of intimate friendship and service and Narayana Maharaja said they discussed many things.
TKG: Another point. Narayana Maharaja explained that the Gaudiya acaryas in our line are usually in madhurya-bhava. And from the symptoms that we've seen of Prabhupada's activities - like establishing Radha-Krsna all over the world and so many other things - and since madhurya-bhava is the most complete relationship of the five rasas, for this and various other reasons we accept his statement that Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa.
Prabhupada told us to chant prayers, nikunja yunoh rati keli siddhyai, and we meditate on them in relation to Prabhupada. That's clearly in madhurya-bhava. Prabhupada also wrote Jayapataka Maharaja that those prayers are not necessarily for all gurus. And yet Prabhupada specifically taught us to sing them to glorify him. So that indicates something. The prayer before that is also indicative of madhurya-bhava.
So Narayana Maharaja has made us more aware of this fact and certainly it will have more and more relevance as we advance and understand more.
To say that this is not important, as some GBC men suggest, "I don't care what you are in your nitya-lila," even though we say jaya nitya-lila om visnupada, but "it doesn't matter what you are in nitya-lila." I think that's pretty extraordinary.
I want to know Prabhupada. I want to come close to Prabhupada. I want to love Prabhupada. I know I may not know every detail about Prabhupada's identity, but based upon scripture I can certainly understand some general things about what Prabhupada must be doing now.
As far as Prabhupada's actual identity, Narayana Maharaja has told us very clearly how we are going to be able to understand it. He said that at the right time, when you are qualified, your Guru Maharaja will reveal it to you in your heart. He has never told us that he would tell us. He has never indicated that he knows what it is, specifically. He has only said to us that at the right time your Guru Maharaja will reveal to you in the heart.
So it's very astonishing to me that the very thing our critics say should happen - that Prabhupada will reveal his identity to us - is exactly what Narayana Maharaja has been saying all along.
They have been fabricating all this other garbage about what we are supposed to be saying, which is not what we are saying. It's just the same thing again and again. So I hope this will clear the point. Narayana Maharaja never said he would tell us. He always said that when the disciple is qualified he will get to know by the grace of his guru.
BP: In this criticism, and in so many of the others, there is always this intimation that Narayana Maharaja is saying "I am your Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada's, dear friend. Because I am his dear friend, if you surrender unto me and come to me, I will reveal so many intimate things that you do not know because I have a special relationship with him."
That type of talk is just mythology. He doesn't speak like that. We don't think like that. He has not propagated anything like that.
TKG: He does not talk excessively about the relationship. He just discusses scripture with us. He says scripture can give you many, many indications about your guru. That's how he helps. A siksa-guru can help you by teaching you the meaning of scripture.
BP: He had a friendship with Prabhupada and they had lots of affection. That's it.
TKG: And he said that they had talks and that from their talks and the singing Prabhupada did and the choice of songs Prabhupada sang he could understand something about Prabhupada's position. Narayana Maharaja mentioned that Prabhupada regularly sang two songs--the Prayers to the Six Gosvamis and Sri Rupa Manjari Pada. And he says that from these songs and the talks they had, he has no doubt that Prabhupada was in madhurya-bhava.
Who are we to question it? In any case, I don't need to question it because there is enough scriptural evidence to convince me. And I am further happy to hear this confirmation from Narayana Maharaja.
But it doesn't mean there was some intimate deep friendship and that's why he is now specifically qualified. We have never said that and have no interest to make him the siksa-guru of ISKCON. That's the myth people have been propagating. But it is not true. And it's obvious he is not. So many don't accept him. That's why I keep saying, all I see is fear of fear. It's blind fear. I am waiting to see reasons for the fear. Then I will stop seeing him.
If all I hear is you saying "I am just fearful" or "I am disturbed" how can I be convinced? Why are you fearful? Just show me why you are fearful. Show me that philosophy. We are going through it. There is nothing. So far there has been nothing. The things attributed to us are all incorrect. If these are the reasons, then on every single one we are correct. And how many people go to see him? Why don't you ask that question? What is the extent of this following in ISKCON?
LS: I asked ...
[end of available transcript]
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